Topic: notation question for you experts :)

1. notation question for you experts :)

As most of you know, I do everything by ear and while I have no formal music training,
I can count when I hear a piece of music.. like this,,
1& 2& 3& 4&

1 e and a,
two e and a,
three e and a,
four e and a

but I did this piece of music years ago for the Garritan Christmas project and can not for the life of me figure out the time signature. What is it? Is it 4/4? Some of it is but some of it sure isn't. OK maybe it's....

first measure 4/4... Lo how a
second measure 2/4... rose e/re
third measure 4/4... blooming
fourth measure 4/4... from tender
fifth measure 4/4... stem hath
sixth measure 4/4... sprung

http://www.dankury.com/music/Lo!HowA...erBlooming.mp3

For anyone with a microphone I would love to hear my track in the background and someone counting with it.

Any takers?
Dan

2. Re: notation question for you experts :)

At first I thought this was a combination of 6/4 and 4/4 times, but on careful listening and a Google search, I found a MIDI file that explains some of the mystery. It is to be a combination of 4/4, 2/4, and 5/4 time. Since I don't have a MIC, I can give the following:

I am pretty sure it goes:

measure 1 (2 beats)
measure 2 (4 beats)
measure 3 (5 beats) (this is unique to your arrangement most are 4 beats on this measure; this may also be intended as a Bird's Eye pause).
measure 4-6 (4 beats)
measure 7 (2 beats)
...
and so on.

It would sound like:
1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2, 1,2,3,4 ...

3. Re: notation question for you experts :)

I recognize the melody almost immediately. Upon more research, most sheet music for that work indicates ad libitum more or less. Not meant to be strict, for sure. Some have it common time; others have it 6/4. It's all really interpretation.

4. Re: notation question for you experts :)

Originally Posted by DPDAN
...
first measure 4/4... Lo how a
second measure 2/4... rose e/re
third measure 4/4... blooming
(insert measure of 2)
fourth measure 4/4... from tender
fifth measure 4/4... stem hath
sixth measure 4/4... sprung
You've already had good responses, Dan. I would count it pretty much as you have it, and you'll see I've inserted a measure of 2/4 for that hold after "blooming," because you've kept the tempo steady and you can count 1, 2.

Other moments, like where it seems there's a 5/4 measure, I attribute to fermatas. You're just holding, theoretically "out of time" - but your pulse is still steady. I do that often when I know there needs to be a fermata at the end of a measure. I just make it 5/4 so I can keep feeling the pulse, or make it 4/4 if it's something otherwise in 3/4.

So, lots of "free time" but the pulse keeps going!

Randy

5. Re: notation question for you experts :)

Originally Posted by DPDAN
As most of you know, I do everything by ear and while I have no formal music training,
I can count when I hear a piece of music.. like this,,
1& 2& 3& 4&

1 e and a,
two e and a,
three e and a,
four e and a

but I did this piece of music years ago for the Garritan Christmas project and can not for the life of me figure out the time signature. What is it? Is it 4/4? Some of it is but some of it sure isn't. OK maybe it's....

first measure 4/4... Lo how a
second measure 2/4... rose e/re
third measure 4/4... blooming
fourth measure 4/4... from tender
fifth measure 4/4... stem hath
sixth measure 4/4... sprung

http://www.dankury.com/music/Lo!HowA...erBlooming.mp3

For anyone with a microphone I would love to hear my track in the background and someone counting with it.

Any takers?
Dan
From text on an original quaver copy, the piece is to be “felt” in common, or 4/4 time.

6. Re: notation question for you experts :)

Originally Posted by DPDAN
As most of you know, I do everything by ear and while I have no formal music training,
I can count when I hear a piece of music.. like this,,
1& 2& 3& 4&

1 e and a,
two e and a,
three e and a,
four e and a

but I did this piece of music years ago for the Garritan Christmas project and can not for the life of me figure out the time signature. What is it? Is it 4/4? Some of it is but some of it sure isn't. OK maybe it's....

first measure 4/4... Lo how a
second measure 2/4... rose e/re
third measure 4/4... blooming
fourth measure 4/4... from tender
fifth measure 4/4... stem hath
sixth measure 4/4... sprung

http://www.dankury.com/music/Lo!HowA...erBlooming.mp3

For anyone with a microphone I would love to hear my track in the background and someone counting with it.

Any takers?
Dan
From text on an original quaver copy, the piece is to be “felt” in common, or 4/4 time.

7. Re: notation question for you experts :)

I agree with everyone that the tune is in 4/4 time with fermatas on the parts that sound like 5/4 time. I did a search at the IMSLP library to check.

If it helps here is the link to the page at the IMSLP public domain site. The PDF shows the tune to be in 4/4 and the MIDI file has a "choir" sound that accompanies the melody.

http://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas...r_blooming.htm

It's a lovely and very peaceful tune.

8. Re: notation question for you experts :)

I'm sticking with mostly 4/4 and sometimes 2/4 with a lot of fermatas.

Thanks everyone !!!!
Dan

9. Re: notation question for you experts :)

Originally Posted by DPDAN
I'm sticking with mostly 4/4 and sometimes 2/4 with a lot of fermatas.

Thanks everyone !!!!
Dan
That would be my suggestion, Dan.

Time changes are appropriate to keep timing correct and downbeats in
the right places so long as there is forward momentum.

Where the pulse is held back or ceases briefly, that is where one uses a
fermata.

Further detailing in metronome markup can be used for additional
refinement.

The primary goal of notation is to create a written version of the music
that can be accurately used to replicate the piece in later performance.

Whatever achieves that is, in my view, "correct notation".

Best,

David
------
David Sosnowski
www.DavidSosnowski.com

10. Re: notation question for you experts :)

Here's a video visual aid that confirms how this tune is best notated with a combination of 4/4 and 2/4. Exactly as David "Et Lux" said, "...time changes are appropriate to keep timing correct and downbeats in the right places..."

In your version, Dan, there are more pseudo-fermatas where you've momentarily held, but maintained the pulse, which makes the pauses 2/4 measures instead of true fermatas which, again as David said, are when "...the pulse...ceases briefly."

The MIDI file posted is all in 4/4, as Yjoh noted, but that notation is awkward, despite the fact that the song was apparently notated that way originally. Without having the occasional 2/4 measures, phrases start in the middle of measures, which is unnecessarily awkward.

I used that MIDI file to play the GPO Steinway, and inserted 2/4 measures where they should be to make the counting obey the pulse. This seems to be an accurate enough version of the original song, and it can be heard that the 2/4 measures aren't creating an interpretation - they are crucial to the melody line as written. Without this phrasing, it would be a different song.

The only adjustment I made to the time signature was to change measure 19 to 4/4 instead of the 3/4 measure originally in the MIDI file, since I felt it made for an awkward rush to the final chord. That called also for changing the last notes in measure 19 to half notes instead of quarter notes.

This is an AVI screen capture which will open in a new tab if your computer is set up to directly play AVI files.

Lo! How A Rose E'er Blooming (by Theodore Baker-1894)

Randy