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Topic: Garritan MIDI Samples 'Referenced' By Sonar Even Though File Is All audio.

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  1. #1

    Garritan MIDI Samples 'Referenced' By Sonar Even Though File Is All audio.

    I've also asked this question in the Sonar forums but paragraphing isn't working there so I'm hoping it works here and someone here can help. I'm using Sonar X1d.

    Having setup my score in Sonar using MIDI tracks I then bounced these to audio tracks and deleted all my MIDI tracks and the Aria Player.

    Although my Sonar score is now fully Audio tracks, when I open my file Sonar still whizzes through the MIDI sample names before loading the audio tracks. I should add that the MIDI samples are not actually loaded, they are just 'referenced' by Sonar first before opening my audio tracks.

    Is there a way I can stop this happening, a way to flush out all these now unwanted MIDI samples references?

    I know that I could create a new score using just audio tracks then importing the audio files but then there's all the automation and performance nuances I've added. It's a large score so 'twill be a lot of work.

    I'm hoping there's a way I can 'clean' my existing score.

    Many thanks.

    Edit: Phew, the paragraphing works here.
    Michael
    Patience is a virtue, sensitivity is a gift

  2. #2

    Re: Garritan MIDI Samples 'Referenced' By Sonar Even Though File Is All audio.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_uk View Post
    I've also asked this question in the Sonar forums but paragraphing isn't working there so I'm hoping it works here and someone here can help.
    Firefox doesn't work right at the Sonar Forum. It's such a drag, no formatting available. When I want to post something of any length there, I have to temporarily open Chrome to do it. For some reason, even though the Cakewalk staff has known about the problem for maybe 2 years - they don't update their Forum software so Firefox, the most popular browser, will be compatible with it. Very weird.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_uk View Post
    I'm using Sonar X1d.

    Having setup my score in Sonar using MIDI tracks I then bounced these to audio tracks and deleted all my MIDI tracks and the Aria Player.
    Yikes! Michael - You really don't want to delete your MIDI tracks. Bouncing to audio for mixing is definitely the way to go, but all you need to do is Mute and then Archive all your MIDI tracks, so no CPU power is being dedicated to them. Then, use the Track Manager to make all those tracks invisible - Your workspace will be tidy with just the audio tracks.

    But you want to be able to archive your whole project - Many is the time I've gone back to older projects, and if I only had audio to show for them--all my composition and arranging work would be gone!--Noooo, Please, Michael - don't do that again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_uk View Post

    Although my Sonar score is now fully Audio tracks, when I open my file Sonar still whizzes through the MIDI sample names before loading the audio tracks. I should add that the MIDI samples are not actually loaded, they are just 'referenced' by Sonar first before opening my audio tracks.

    Is there a way I can stop this happening, a way to flush out all these now unwanted MIDI samples references?...
    Now - This I've never seen. That can't be happening unless you still have an activated ARIA in the project. As long as you don't disengage ARIA, the samples will load every time. So along with the above advice about archiving and hiding your MIDI tracks, the other step before going into audio mixing, is to turn ARIA off in the synth rack.

    I know you said you--gulp--deleted your instances of ARIA, but wow, I swear there has to be at least one instance in there you've overlooked. - X1 can be murkier to get a handle on than Sonar where synths are always plainly visible in the synth rack tab.-- Take another look, Michael - At least one instance has to still be in the project. And even without the MIDI tracks it will still load its samples, since that's part of the project file.

    Randy

  3. #3

    Re: Garritan MIDI Samples 'Referenced' By Sonar Even Though File Is All audio.

    I use Sonar X1d and my solution is the following:

    1) Create the midi tracks with ARIA as the player.
    2) When all is ready to bounce, save the file (most likely you do it often as I do), but save it one last time.
    3) Delete all the midi tracks and ARIA players and save as a new file (I usually annex the words "audio wave only" to distinguish it from the original file.

    The important thing is to have all reference to midi tracks and ARIA removed if you don't want Sonar looking for them at the start of loading the file.

    This way I have the original file with all the midi tracks, ARIA players and wav files in one file and just a clean audio version as the other file. You might want Sonar to look and remove and unused midi and wav files from the clean audio file as well. Sorry, I don't remember how to do that right now.

    I hope this helps a little.
    [Music is the Rhythm, Harmony and Breath of Life]
    "Music is music, and a note's a note" - Louis 'Satchmo' Armstrong

    Rich

  4. #4

    Re: Garritan MIDI Samples 'Referenced' By Sonar Even Though File Is All audio.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichR View Post
    ...The important thing is to have all reference to midi tracks and ARIA removed if you don't want Sonar looking for them at the start of loading the file.

    This way I have the original file with all the midi tracks, ARIA players and wav files in one file and just a clean audio version as the other file...
    With all due respect, Rich, and Michael - I have no idea why any of this is needed.

    Why have I never - and I mean never, in any version of Sonar, including X1, had instruments trying to load in a project where I've archived the MIDI files and turned off ARIA, or any other synth?--- There's no reason to have two projects - When things are all tucked away, it's not possible for Sonar to try loading anything in regards to MIDI.

    After bouncing to audio:
    Mute all MIDI tracks. Archive them. Make them go away with Track Manager. Disengage ARIA. -- No more MIDI anything in the project, instruments can't load on start up. But you have one project file, with all your MIDI work still there, ready to be worked with again in the future if you want.

    Really and truly.

    Randy

  5. #5

    Re: Garritan MIDI Samples 'Referenced' By Sonar Even Though File Is All audio.

    Hello Randy and Rich,

    Many thanks for your input.

    Randy, I should have mentioned that I have kept the full MIDI and Audio file. Having backed up this full file I then made my audio only file.

    I'll try that approach you suggested of muting and archiving all the MIDI aspects.

    Just as a matter of curiosity, I'll take a very close look for signs of any remaining MIDI but I'm pretty sure I cleaned it all out. Will take another look just for interest sake.

    Rich, thanks for your suggestion. I have tried that there is no change.

    Thanks again for your suggestions.

    It's a pain about Firefox and Cakewalk forums still.
    Michael
    Patience is a virtue, sensitivity is a gift

  6. #6

    Re: Garritan MIDI Samples 'Referenced' By Sonar Even Though File Is All audio.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_uk View Post
    ...Randy, I should have mentioned that I have kept the full MIDI and Audio file. Having backed up this full file I then made my audio only file.
    Yes, I freaked, Michael!-- I was picturing you there in your studio with no MIDI data to show for all our work, and I couldn't imagine that you would really do that, hence my big burst of concern.

    This is a relief to know that you've kept the data, just in a different project file.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_uk View Post
    I'll try that approach you suggested of muting and archiving all the MIDI aspects.
    Sonar, as you know, is a very sophisticated program. They've made so many things clean and easy for us - They would never plan on users needing to keep two separate project files just to get their work done. Really, you definitely will be better off with your projects in one place, one folder with the name of the project, and inside is your project file(s) and a folder of audio.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_uk View Post

    Just as a matter of curiosity, I'll take a very close look for signs of any remaining MIDI but I'm pretty sure I cleaned it all out. Will take another look just for interest sake.
    I'll be looking forward to your next post about this. Because really, it's impossible for those instruments to load unless there's an ARIA still activated in the project. With tracks and synth either gone or archived and hidden - that's that, no more active MIDI in the project, and there's no running data left for Sonar to try loading a synth.

    X1 is so weird, I find it so anyway - (ok, I can't stand it!)-- Aren't there ways that things can get accidentally hidden, or parked in some corner off screen - Something of the sort - I just can't put my finger on what's hiding that synth.

    You do have to understand, I've Never had ARIA get loaded with instruments when it's turned off in the synth rack. It's never happened with any synth - I'm as sure as I am about anything that it's impossible.

    Maybe there's something scrambled with your installation - IIII don't know!

    Randy

  7. #7

    Re: Garritan MIDI Samples 'Referenced' By Sonar Even Though File Is All audio.

    Randy said:
    With all due respect, Rich, and Michael - I have no idea why any of this is needed.
    I'm sorry, I didn't mean to get you fired up Randy. Old habits on low RAM machines and even older DAW programs have made me do this!

    You are absolutely correct in admonishing those forms of file extravagances. I agree with you on the power of SONAR and I have only scratched the surface of what it can do. There just doesn't seem to be enough time in the day to learn everything about all the software I have purchased. That is why it is so nice to have forum friends like you and your weekly tips. I wish more forums had the friendly open guru on them as I find in you and others here at the Garritan Forum.


    [Music is the Rhythm, Harmony and Breath of Life]
    "Music is music, and a note's a note" - Louis 'Satchmo' Armstrong

    Rich

  8. #8

    Re: Garritan MIDI Samples 'Referenced' By Sonar Even Though File Is All audio.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichR View Post
    ...I'm sorry, I didn't mean to get you fired up Randy. Old habits on low RAM machines and even older DAW programs have made me do this!

    You are absolutely correct in admonishing those forms of file extravagances. I agree with you on the power of SONAR and I have only scratched the surface of what it can do. There just doesn't seem to be enough time in the day to learn everything about all the software I have purchased. That is why it is so nice to have forum friends like you and your weekly tips. I wish more forums had the friendly open guru on them as I find in you and others here at the Garritan Forum.
    Hi, Rich - Well now I certainly did get fired up - I was so FREaked when I thought Michael was just throwing away his MIDI - my heart was racing!

    Thanks for indulging me. I understand what you're saying, how long habits with our more under-powered computers of yesteryear can be hard to break. It blew my mind when I could finally stop bouncing down to audio every few MIDI tracks - I had that habit engrained since with older computers I Had to do that in order to play a project. Now I can hear massive things still in the MIDI realm without a hitch. I bounce down to audio after all my MIDI work because I prefer working with audio during mixing, as do you and Michael. I know from experience that we can get much better productions that way.

    I'm calm now. -- but really, I'm not a guru - Just an enthusiastic home recordist who enjoys helping out as I can.

    Randy

  9. #9

    Re: Garritan MIDI Samples 'Referenced' By Sonar Even Though File Is All audio.

    Michael, I wasn't clear from your original post if you posted your question at Sonar or not - I know you encountered the Firefox incompatibility issue, but thought maybe you posted anyway?-- I just looked around both the X1 and the Sonar Forums, and didn't notice your question.

    I open up Chrome when I want to post a properly formatted post at those Forums - I was going to ask about this weird issue you're having. Well - I should probably just go ahead and do that, even if you have a post somewhere on that topic.

    I know I've said that it seems impossible to me, to have instruments loading when there's no longer a synth in a project - But Hey, maybe there's some situation I don't know about where that can happen.

    SO, I'll go post something, and let you know if one of the Cakewalk guys there has info to pass on.

    Randy

  10. #10

    Re: Garritan MIDI Samples 'Referenced' By Sonar Even Though File Is All audio.

    Michael! My post at Sonar's already gotten a reply. This is from Bristol Jonesey, a very helpful Forum member there:

    "Tell him to do a 'save as' of the project to a completely different location and with the "Copy Audio with Project" option checked."


    That's all he wrote, but it's good advice. That should fix things up. He doesn't say that he's seen this odd problem before, but maybe he has, since he popped up so fast with a specific recommendation.

    Randy

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