An idea: A Listening Room Festival

[qccowboy]

sometimes it's difficult, and maybe a little frustrating, to post works.

for myself, my works tend to be a little on the "long" side, which means listening to one of mine tends to be a considerably more involved process, more of a time investment.

in the end, this often means that I will only get a few comments (which I always appreciate), and often from the same 3 or 4 people.

because my works are of a relatively large format, I also work much more slowly. it normally takes me a year or so to finish a 20-minute long work. Some years, I'm Speedy Gonzales and can actually finish two works (2011-2012 was one of those years... finished the 2nd symphony, and wrote a set of piano variations).

add to this the simple fact that my music isn't really "cinematic" or all that easy to get into. I'm not a terribly avant-garde composer, but my works can seem dry to the uninitiated. I know there are others here who post music considerably more "modern" than mine. Still.



Likewise, I'd love to comment more on other peoples' music, but for some reason I cannot explain, my browser (Firefox) just won't let me hear music on those various hosting websites, like Dropbox.

[Plowking]

I understand where the points being raised come from. Certainly disagree with some of them. I only post for feedback on the music, I don't expect comments on the mix in general.

As I started in the Garritan forum, I didn't want to leave.

I'm using less and less Garritan instruments because they don't fit my model of finishing pieces solely on the computer. Nor would I want to double my efforts in creating two versions, a Garritan mock up, (then my finished piece) just to get feedback from people who I believe (and have) always had helpful things to say.

To me its about the music, pity its being pushed to be about the instrument. 'Your violin is more expensive than mine, get out.'

[qccowboy]

To me its about the music, pity its being pushed to be about the instrument. 'Your violin is more expensive than mine, get out.'

I don't really think this is a fair assessment of the situation.

This is, as far as I know, a forum dedicated to, run by and for, users of Garritan products.

It seems perfectly legitimate to me to demand that music posted here at least USE the product.

There are certainly other music forums where comments on the music, and only the music, can be had.

The one place I will agree with you (at least, I think we are agreeing) is that I find the Garritan forum does not tolerate musical criticism. In other words, the rendering often seems to be more important than the quality of the music itself.

[Plowking]

I don't really think this is a fair assessment of the situation.

This is, as far as I know, a forum dedicated to, run by and for, users of Garritan products.

It seems perfectly legitimate to me to demand that music posted here at least USE the product.

There are certainly other music forums where comments on the music, and only the music, can be had.

The one place I will agree with you (at least, I think we are agreeing) is that I find the Garritan forum does not tolerate musical criticism. In other words, the rendering often seems to be more important than the quality of the music itself.

Yes, I actually agree. Not a completely fair assessment as it is a garritan forum. I have a ton of music I've never posted because it has no Garritan instruments in it. So I do follow and respect that ideal. I was also excited when I finished a piece that used some Garritan instruments because I was going to have the option to post it here.

Now though it would seem to warrant listing everything, probably should be the majority and so forth. Again, I understand the point, but I'm entitled to be unhappy about it as I liked the forum and its input into my music, and ironic that a post calling for an opening in some ways of the listening room is immediately beset with 'yes, but on condition of'...

But it can't be completely open of course, otherwise we could be posting anything, in theory.

[rbowser-]

Really encouraging, all the great replies on this thread. I was really happy to see Jim Snyder kick things off by posting two things in The Listening Room last night.

The Festival is underway!

I posted an announcement in The Listening Room, encouraging people to join in by posting music, and also joining in on this General Discussion thread.

Naturally, we're not in 100% agreement about how we should conduct ourselves in The Listening Room, or here in General Discussion, or anywhere on these Garritan pages. But we all clearly want to see the Garritan community to continue thriving.

Here are some thoughts in response to various things brought up on this thread:

--Raymond, I hope you'll consider re-posting things from years past when you were more primarily using Garritan instruments. Many of the current members haven't heard your music. It'd be great to see some of those compositions back up on the front page.

And I also think it'd be great for you to share some of what you're currently working on, even when there's just a sprinkling of Garritan instruments used.

Holding back from participating here in anticipation of yet more Libraries being released is, IMHO, counter-productive, and one of the big and unnecessary factors in how lethargic the Forum's become.

We all have the topic of music in common, and we all have Garritan products in common, no matter how much we currently use them. Some of us are content to keep using the strings in GPO, others aren't - why should our choice of strings dictate how active we are as Forum members?

--DAN, I'm glad you like my simple idea for sparking things up in the Listening Room. And in my festival announcement post this morning, I capsulized your excellent suggestions for how to post music when non-Garritan instruments are used. Even though there's no way to actually enforce your guidelines, you've made an excellent suggestion that I hope everyone follows. To simply list, in the opening sentence, what specific non-Garritan instruments are used in a recording so that listeners won't be confused, is a great recommendation.

--Michael "Sanyarem,” I hope you do exactly what you mentioned - go through your "nostalgia folder" and start posting things again!

--Michael UK, Even though I've always interpreted the LR guidelines liberally, and have thought to use just some Garritan instruments is acceptable, you're right that the guidelines are open to abuse. What hasn't been acceptable to me, or you, any of us is when someone posts music with 100% non-Garritan but makes no mention of it in their post.

Rather recently, a long-time member posted something that was clearly totally non-Garritan. I simply asked which Libraries those sounds were from. The member, on his own volition, removed the music.

About more music being posted here in General Discussion- I'm glad you brought that up, because I didn't realize before your post that there was any confusion about that.

It's Graham "Plowking" in particular who wanted to be able to share some music with us, but didn't want to be offensive by posting his non-Garritan projects in The Listening Room. I told him that to post here seemed like a perfectly good solution to that situation - and I still think it is.

The topic here on this particular page is- General - about anything. And non-Garritan music is in the category of "anything" - So, I feel it's worked out rather well for Graham to post his things here. Perhaps now he could follow DAN's suggestion and post such work in The Listening Room, but with a detailed list in his opening paragraph of exactly what instruments he's used.

Alan, Excellent input, as you always manage to give. I'm glad you like the Festival idea - and your suggestion of making re-posts have somewhat of an educational tone to them, "Here's what I did, here's what I've learned," is great. That could make for some really interesting posts.

Matt, Great post, asking the very good question - if not here, then where to post? You inspired DAN's second post on this thread, and I think his outline of a remedy is very good, even though it will be difficult to "enforce"--well, it'll be impossible to enforce. But all of us could help out by replying to non-compliant posts, saying, "Could you please give us a list of these non-Garritan instruments you used? Thanks."

SysExJohn, Excellent! You finally posted some music. When I'm through typing here, I'll be taking a listen--THANKS for joining in.

qccowboy, It's not only your pieces that receive just a handful of responses. That's been typical for everyone's posts for some time now. So I wouldn't let that be a discouragement. I know a lot of people would really like to hear more of your music - I hope you'll consider posting more soon, during this Summer Festival.

Using browsers and getting their settings tweaked so they work best for us is something I find very mysterious and maddening. I use Firefox and don't have trouble with any posted music - BUT, if someone's used a site or service that doesn't have its own MP3 player, I MUST download the music. People with personal websites, for instance, will post a link to an MP3 - my Download Helper kicks in, and I have to download before listening. It's only at sites like Box and Soundclick, where there's a dedicated media player, that I don't have to download. I've gotten very accustomed to often having to wait and download before listening. If your Firefox for some reason doesn't automatically start a download, right click over a link and "Save As."

Plowking, I addressed your General Discussion music posts above. For my money, you have been doing a very good thing, staying involved here at the Forums and still posting music where it's not breaking any guidelines. I think you've been doing just fine.

qccowboy again - I think there's more than one reason that people post responses to music without giving critiques on the compositions themselves. I for one don't find many critiques of any value, and so I often focus on technical issues when I reply to LR posts, because tips on mixing and other technical matters can be of the most specific value.

But I Do understand what you mean about "negative" critiques not always being met with very well. I'm always a bit trepidatious on those rare occasions when I feel I want to make suggestions about a composition, and/or explain why a piece doesn't work for me.

I think we have to plow ahead and post whatever kinds of responses we're comfortable writing. If the recipient doesn't react well - so be it.

I feel that as long as we frame our responses with friendliness, and with a true desire to be helpful, we reduce the chances of bad reactions greatly.

It is a complicated subject though. Another factor is that not everyone is posting music in order to seek out critiques and/or suggestions. I know that my most usual motivation for posting music is simply to share it. I want my Garritan friends to hear what I've been up to. I'm frankly not interested in analysis, critique, or opinions when I post simply to share.

AND SO ON - The point is, we all like the idea of having a more active Listening Room. As of last night, the Forum has already picked up. I hope the activity continues, and that all of us here join in.

Opinions on all details about the running of the Forum will always differ, and it always makes for stimulating conversation.

But, the bottom line on this current thread is - LET'S SHAKE THIS PLACE UP!---and that's exactly what we're doing. So--Good on us!

Randy

[Raymond62]

Randy wrote:

--Raymond

, I hope you'll consider re-posting things from years past when you were more primarily using Garritan instruments. Many of the current members haven't heard your music. It'd be great to see some of those compositions back up on the front page.

And I also think it'd be great for you to share some of what you're currently working on, even when there's just a sprinkling of Garritan instruments used.

Holding back from participating here in anticipation of yet more Libraries being released is, IMHO, counter-productive, and one of the big and unnecessary factors in how lethargic the Forum's become.

We all have the topic of music in common, and we all have Garritan products in common, no matter how much we currently use them. Some of us are content to keep using the strings in GPO, others aren't - why should our choice of strings dictate how active we are as Forum members?

Of course I am looking for a forum for presenting and having/getting some comments on my works. But I totally agree with the old adagium of Gary: let there be at least some (major) part of Garritan Libs in it. In the past I listened to some works where other libs are being used together with (as a layer) Garritan stuff, in particular those Sam Brass instruments. My older works don't exist anymore, to say they aren't Garritan anymore.

Later on I posted stuff in the General Listening Room, but never got any response, nor noticed any activity there. Composer's Forum is for the elite, I paid a short visit to them and never again later on. Lately I posted my 2nd Pianoconcerto with the Steinway Pro and alto flute (both Garritan) in our LR. Did my best with somebody else's composition named Gondola, re-rendered and partly rewrote it for Garritan Steinway Pro and posted this (as I remember well).

As suggested by others when people post their works let them tell that the major part is NON Garritan. Is this right? It still is a Garritan Forum and giving Gary credits is more or less obligatory and respectfull. After all he set me off using symphonic lib's and gave me the kick-in-the-a** doing things with my sleeping talent, wether or not successful. He paved me the path to follow, in spite of quite a few differences we had about the marketing strategy of Garritan Comp.
It simply isn't fair, doesn't feel good.

Now we have to deal with Make Music and who knows other companies who are on top of these. But that doesn't rule out Garritan. His libs are the best programmed on the market (IMHO), within reasonable budgets. Right now I am busy with another symphonic work and let me tell you that in spite of my panned violas (a bit to the right) some articulations simply come from the far left..... that NEVER happened with Garritan instruments. I can produce a "walking viola pizzicato", good for any surprising musical experience by simply notate notes from the lower to the higher registers. I can go on, this lib I am using now is a topnotch example of sloppy programming. Should I present my works - is always some advertisment of the libs I use - at this forum? Should I tempt people to buy this one? Never! As soon as there is a decent strings lib from Gary I will buy this, together with the finally updated Steinway Pro.

I am loyal to Garritan and when you are really curious about my compositions, just go to my website. It is all there in Dutch only but that shouldn't be so hard, just click the various buttons. Only if and when we all agree with this new policy of the LR, being some sort of "Music Hall" in general I will post some new works inviting people commenting on.

With regards,

Raymond

[rbowser-]

Thanks for the new post, Raymond.

Yes, we're all agreeing that it's appropriate that music posted has Garritan instruments in it.

And at the same time, Dan has a very good solution for people unable to post work if they have things they'd like us to hear that don't have Garritan instruments in it. They can start off in their first paragraph of a specific list of exactly what libraries they used, so there's no confusion. They could even include that info in their subject line "Non-Garritan String Quartet."

It's too bad that it would seem you didn't keep copies of your works done with Garritan--?--otherwise you could re-post those. But following Dan's great suggestion, you could still post your current work, if you really want to share it and get some feedback. Just tell us exactly what you used.

If someone has a burning desire to have Forum members hear their music, there's nothing stopping them.

The Festival is going very well here on day one!

Randy

[Michael135]

I do wish people wouldn't take so much offense if someone decides to use strings/orchestral instruments from a different library. If anything, it can highlight how well Garritan products can blend (which, they do wonderful) with other products. I do think people should say what they used, or, if nothing else make mention what Garritan products are being used.

I'm currently starting work on a project that will be making good use of Garritan World instruments. However, the rest of my orchestral selection will be other libraries, which are better (and a lot more expensive) than the Garritan orchestral instruments I have. It would be a real shame to say that pieces such as mine which highlight the world instruments shouldn't be posted because I don't only use Garritan products for my renderings. I do hope that this attitude that pieces that are only 100%, or close to it of Garritan instruments can be posted here, as I find it quite discouraging to post anything that does not fulfill this requirement.

Hopefully, I'll be posting pieces from this project (it's a rather long one) for input on them later in the year. I hope that people are a little more open minded about music being music, rather than a constant advertisement for one product or another (which, it's not).

[qccowboy]

again, that is missing the point.
no one is rabidly anti-everything-that-isn't-Garritan.

and no one is saying that music posted here should be 100% Garritan products.

But a significant portion should be. And in my opinion, and it seems to be the majority consensus, that is respectful of this forum and the way it should be.

[Michael135]

But what consists of a significant portion? For my case, I will be using a lot of the world instruments, but they will be most likely for accents, and solo passages (like the Lord of the Rings soundtrack). I hear significant portion, and it seems to be that a lot of people here believe that should mean the orchestra should be garritan, with a few non garritan solo instruments. Perhaps I am misunderstanding it, but that's how it's coming across.