• Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 13

Topic: GPO Trumpets - is non-legato unision playing possible?

Share/Bookmark
  1. #1

    Unhappy GPO Trumpets - is non-legato unison playing possible?

    Can anyone advise me please on how to best achieve clear non-legato playing when combining GPO Trumpet 1 Plr1, Trumpet 1 Plr2, and Trumpet 1 Plr3 in unison? I am finding it impossible to achieve a reasonably staccato attack.

    Regards

    Alan T
    Last edited by Alan T; 08-01-2012 at 12:09 PM. Reason: Woops - fixed the typo!
    Garritan: GPO4, JABB3, Steinway Model D Basic; Cakewalk: Sonar X1 Producer, VS100; MakeMusic: Finale 2011, PrintMusic 2011.

  2. #2

    Re: GPO Trumpets - is non-legato unision playing possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan T View Post
    Can anyone advise me please on how to best achieve clear non-legato playing when combining GPO Trumpet 1 Plr1, Trumpet 1 Plr2, and Trumpet 1 Plr3 in unison? I am finding it impossible to achieve a reasonably staccato attack.

    Regards

    Alan T
    I suggest you use Trumpet solo 1, Trumpet solo 2 and SAM Trumpet solo - They each have a much more distinct attack. The Player instruments in all categories are best used only when you need more filling out, putting them in a subordinate roll in your mixes.

    Randy

  3. #3

    Re: GPO Trumpets - is non-legato unision playing possible?

    Hi...
    As you can see in the avatar, I am a brass player. What is your velocity setting for the trumpet notes? For good, crisp attacks, I generally find I have to set the velocity at least to 90. In case you were unaware, velocity controls attack level in GPO. And if it is staccato you want, I trust you are also shortening the notes. How are you entering the music? In step-time? In a notation program? into a DAW in real time?

    Another helpful trick is to make sure that the attacks are not occurring on exactly the same tick. Stagger the timing of the notes ever so slightly and that will allow the attacks to sound more cleanly and will give fullness to your section.

    If you have low velocity, long notes, and perfectly coincident attacks, you won't get staccato at all.

    Feel free to attach an example if you wish.

    Jim
    Jim Williams
    Professor of Capitalism
    N9EJR
    Indianapolis Brass Choir
    All Your Bass Sus&Short Are Belong to Us.

  4. #4

    Re: GPO Trumpets - is non-legato unision playing possible?

    Randy and snorlax (Jim)
    I am currently reworking the trumpet sections, in line with your helpful recommendations. I have achieved some improvement, thank you. Unfortunately, I don’t have permission on this forum to upload files, and I don’t know how to request it. I will add a temporary link, should you be interested in listening to the end result of the rework.
    Garritan: GPO4, JABB3, Steinway Model D Basic; Cakewalk: Sonar X1 Producer, VS100; MakeMusic: Finale 2011, PrintMusic 2011.

  5. #5

    Re: GPO Trumpets - is non-legato unision playing possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan T View Post
    Randy and snorlax (Jim)
    I am currently reworking the trumpet sections, in line with your helpful recommendations. I have achieved some improvement, thank you. Unfortunately, I don’t have permission on this forum to upload files, and I don’t know how to request it. I will add a temporary link, should you be interested in listening to the end result of the rework.
    Hi, Alan - Good to hear from you again.

    None of us can upload files directly to the Forum, so no permission is possible - it's just the way the pages are set up. What we do when we want to share files, like when we post MP3s in The Listening Room, is we upload to a storage space online and then when writing a message, use the "Link" tool above the text box to insert the URL for the file.

    A lot of us use Box for posting music, because they have a nice, uncluttered page for listeners to go to, with a dedicated MP3 player. There are many other such sites - Soundcloud, SoundClick et al.

    Randy

  6. #6

    Re: GPO Trumpets - is non-legato unision playing possible?

    This is a quick "before and after" using one of the COMB euphoniums...

    BEFORE

    AFTER

    ANOTHER

    As usual, I could have processed these even more; I forget where I set the velocity. Higher velocity=crisper attack.
    These discussions are always learning experiences for me!

    PS--Alan, I should have said "link to a file" instead of "attach a file."
    Jim Williams
    Professor of Capitalism
    N9EJR
    Indianapolis Brass Choir
    All Your Bass Sus&Short Are Belong to Us.

  7. #7

    Re: GPO Trumpets - is non-legato unision playing possible?

    Hi, again...

    Here are some examples of processing that can help to achieve some staccato in brass.

    I used GPO 4, trumpet 1, players 1, 2, and 3. Note that these are not the absolute best samples--I might have used the solos instead--but this will give kind of an acid test. Randy pointed out correctly that some trumpets have inherently harder attacks than others.
    If you really need a kicking attack, you might also want to see Randy's tips on using overlays for your brass.

    I used Overture 4.15--it is much more MIDI manipulation-friendly than Finale is. I used a bit of reverb and stereo stage of 75% in ARIA. One trumpet is panned hard left, one hard right, and one center.

    Raw data with velocity of 64 Note that the attacks are mushy. There's also probably a bit of phasing since everything is 100% coincident. This is what I get after just entering the notes.

    Raw data with velocity of 112 The attacks are a bit more pronounced here, but all attacks are still fully coincident.

    Randomized attacks with velocity of 112 Now it sounds a bit fatter, but still not really hard staccato.

    Semi-final product I shortened the notes, did a bit more randomization of attacks, brightened up the sound a bit, added some VAR 1 and VAR 2, tuned trumpet 1 one cent sharp, and tuned trumpet 3 two cents flat. It sounds like a tight section.

    What else might I do? If I had more time, I would have round-robined the trumpets. That's how I did the triple-tongue thing in my earlier post. Round-robining is a useful way to decrease the machine gun sound of rapid tonguing.

    See what you think...

    As I've been posting a bit lately, I see patterns emerging...

    *Nothing sounds good right out of the box, not even the $10K llibraries.

    *With Garritan libraries, some basic processing can go a long way and sounds good. To me, that's the beauty of GPO, JABB, COMB, etc.

    *That last amount of realism takes a lot of time, generally down to the level of individual notes.

    *As someone who worksprimarily in notation, I really appreciate the Garritan philosophy of being notation-friendly. Some of the $10K
    libraries don't get along with notation programs.

    *Overture is better for MIDI manipulation, but Finale is best for printed scores and typesetting.

    Snor
    Jim Williams
    Professor of Capitalism
    N9EJR
    Indianapolis Brass Choir
    All Your Bass Sus&Short Are Belong to Us.

  8. #8

    Re: GPO Trumpets - is non-legato unision playing possible?

    Hello again Snortax and Randy

    Thank you for your valued suggestions and advice. I have provided a link to what I have produced so far. I am happy with the brass now. The transcription and GPO rendering is a "concert" interpretation of the piece, so the brass section is intentionally less brash than in the "cinematic" original. I have also included the full string section in the mix so you can better judge the final blend. The transcription and GPO rendering is being undertaken for personal educational purposes only.

    Here is the Box Net link:

    https://www.box.com/s/aebf6af438f57bf0e3a2

    Regards

    Alan T
    Garritan: GPO4, JABB3, Steinway Model D Basic; Cakewalk: Sonar X1 Producer, VS100; MakeMusic: Finale 2011, PrintMusic 2011.

  9. #9

    Re: GPO Trumpets - is non-legato unision playing possible?

    Hi, Alan - Jim "snorlax" has sure been doing a great job of being your tutor on this thread!

    Your test recording is sounding pretty good. Brass seems more than acceptable to me, so Snor's posts have clearly been helping you out.

    I see from your signature that you have Sonar as well as Finale. This recording is clearly from Finale, maybe without much if any Human Playback used?--since it has that overly-strict notation feel. If you're interested in getting the best recordings as well as the most accurate notation, besides experimenting with HP, you could try what a lot of people do. They export a MIDI version of their Finale work, import it into Sonar, and then use all those tools to make the most musical sounding recording as possible. Adjustments are made so notes aren't starting absolutely on time, more volume control is recording, and the whole mix is detailed out more than it can be in Finale.

    I have also included the full string section in the mix so you can better judge the final blend.
    Right, the balance between the instruments can be improved, and more easily done in Sonar.

    Glad you're making progress!

    Randy

  10. #10

    Re: GPO Trumpets - is non-legato unision playing possible?

    Alan,
    Nice job on this!!

    After hearing what you're trying to do, I'd offer just two suggestions:

    1. I'd shorten some of the brass notes in the main theme--that will give the effect of isolating the attacks in the brass and will impart some "oomph." Take a listen to the Gustav Holst piece I posted in the listening room & hear the shortness of the notes & how that shortness helps notes to speak clearly. "Loooong, short-short loooong, short-short loooong" in the main theme of your piece. Maybe I'll cook up an example. March-style music will benefit from short brass notes where appropriate.

    2. I'd also encourage you to look for and at Randy's "Tip of the Day" on using brass overlays. This is the kind of piece that can benefit from an overlay, I'd say. As Randy indicates, some of the overlays are marked "ag" for aggressive. Though you're trying to be less brash here as you say, the overlays may create a stronger presence for your brass. I also have a rule that I generally follow the contour of a musical line with the mod wheel, adding some small but noticeable dynamic movement. I always ask myself "how would I play this if it were my part?"

    One of the fun aspects of working with these libraries and other software is the undo key . If I try something and it doesn't work, it's CTRL-Z time!! Keep experimenting!! I wish I had more time for it myself! What I want to do is learn to use the DAW to better advantage and work in audio rather than in MIDI when I put pieces together. I'm moving at a glacial pace, but I'll get there eventually.

    If this is indeed a Finale file, I'll be happy to look at it if you want to share.

    Again, well done!!
    Snor
    Jim Williams
    Professor of Capitalism
    N9EJR
    Indianapolis Brass Choir
    All Your Bass Sus&Short Are Belong to Us.

Go Back to forum

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •