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Topic: Session Strings 2

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  1. #1

    Session Strings 2

    This music is Vivaldi. It is a violin concerto.
    Cyberchambermusic published it on the first album "cyber beethoven mozart vivaldi" in 2002. It is still available on iTunes.


    There use to be a site "download.com" where users could upload music mp3. Interested listeners could then download the music free. Cyberchambermusic was a regular contributor. There were 36,000 downloads of CCM mp3s when the site changed its mind and went out of the music business. At that time CCM switched to cdbaby as a way to publish to a large audience. However, the music was no longer free. And the downloads dropped dramatically. The index of interest becomes not downloads but sales. Of the 20 or so albums CCM has published, this Vivaldi violin concerto called "Summer" from the first album has been the leader of CCM track sales (downloads).


    CCM continues to try many different string sounds. When we compared Session Strings for Summer, it impressed us as more suitable. This music is old music from the Baroque era. It is quite different in its sound and therefore its effect on the listener compared to later music. Its primative rhythms, themes and instrument groupings are well before the familiar harmonies of Beethoven, Mozart and Tchaikovsky, who are the prime movers of later music. They, and therefore later musics, were not influenced by the Baroque. So it is still a mystery why Summer from the Baroque should be so popular. CCM plans to publish Summer using Session Strings (also Bach 3rd Brandenburg Concerto). It will be the fourth of four versions of Summer presented by CCM.


    It is widely said that the third of the three movements depicts a storm. Perhaps the middle movement depicts a midday siesta by a tranquil stream. The regular drone in the violins could denote the rhythmic flow of the water. The singing solo violin may depict the sleepers reverie. That leaves one other feature of this middle movement for comment. The sudden five loud staccato outbursts that continually disrupt the tranquility. The outbursts depict the annoying buzzing flies. CCM is loath to change the composers score. But the rapid staccato sound indicated by Vivaldi's score (for the buzzing?) has now been replaced with the more moderate and more musical string tremolo.


    Session Strings was not intended for the Baroque.


    The solo violin is not Session Strings.


    https://www.box.com/s/3sng256ynso3dmkyzn1u

  2. #2

    Re: Session Strings 2

    Wow, just great post indeed. It sounds good, I am going to download songs from the site and really enjoy the Session strings 2. Thanks for it.
    .

  3. #3

    Re: Session Strings 2

    mmm... sorry, but this doesn't sound good... sounds like the output of a notation program, like Finale or Sibelius.
    The expression isn't there, flexibility of the sound, cresc./dim. etc. the phrasing, in a word

    PS how can you say that Mozart, Beethoven and Tchajkovsky were not influenced by baroque? And they neither were the initiators of a new music, let alone the fact that they belong to different historical periods... lots of misinformation here...

  4. #4

    Re: Session Strings 2

    Quote Originally Posted by oldbob View Post
    mmm... sorry, but this doesn't sound good... sounds like the output of a notation program, like Finale or Sibelius.
    The expression isn't there, flexibility of the sound, cresc./dim. etc. the phrasing, in a word

    PS how can you say that Mozart, Beethoven and Tchajkovsky were not influenced by baroque? And they neither were the initiators of a new music, let alone the fact that they belong to different historical periods... lots of misinformation here...
    Give me an example of a Mozart piece that has Baroque influence.

    I am sorry you say it doesn't sound good. You mean there is nothing good you can find to say about it?
    How about: the high energy level was sustained throughout. How about: the sequencer was faithful to Vivaldi's score with no observable missed notes. Could you say that Baroque era music lacks the dramatic flexible turns of the Romantic era?

    Does your reference to flexibility of sound include the sharp tempo and dynamic change from the soft and lyrical to the loud and fast tremolos in the middle movement? This dramatic change occurs four times in the middle movement. Does your flexibility comment exclude changes in tempo? Here https://www.box.com/s/0tf1gez1e1804xbcr3tw is an image of the tempo changes. It shows 32 tempo changes from a low of 20 bpm to a high of 140 bpm.

    Here https://www.box.com/s/kmgaz9mwqnepi411d56a is an image from an audio editor from the 3rd movement. Notice the sharp dynamic change? See the cres/dim?

  5. #5

    Re: Session Strings 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan S View Post
    Give me an example of a Mozart piece that has Baroque influence.

    I am sorry you say it doesn't sound good. You mean there is nothing good you can find to say about it?
    How about: the high energy level was sustained throughout. How about: the sequencer was faithful to Vivaldi's score with no observable missed notes. Could you say that Baroque era music lacks the dramatic flexible turns of the Romantic era?

    Does your reference to flexibility of sound include the sharp tempo and dynamic change from the soft and lyrical to the loud and fast tremolos in the middle movement? This dramatic change occurs four times in the middle movement. Does your flexibility comment exclude changes in tempo? Here https://www.box.com/s/0tf1gez1e1804xbcr3tw is an image of the tempo changes. It shows 32 tempo changes from a low of 20 bpm to a high of 140 bpm.

    Here https://www.box.com/s/kmgaz9mwqnepi411d56a is an image from an audio editor from the 3rd movement. Notice the sharp dynamic change? See the cres/dim?
    what I mean, and in the most respectful way, is that real instruments don't sound like that... and samples should as far as possible reflect real performances... here's a quick example I've done,

    www.robertosoggetti.com/Vivaldi.mp3

    ok, maybe too much vibrato for the period, but it gives the idea of what I mean for expressive samples playing...
    as for Mozart being influenced by baroque, well, every composition by Mozart is influenced by the baroque language, because that's where he was coming from... the so called "classical" period (Mozart, Haydn, first Beethoven), with its (beyond bearing, if you ask me) use of V-I is an evolution of the preceding century's harmonic development. Bach studied Palestrina or Vivaldi ecc., Mozart studied Bach, Palestrina and Vivaldi, Beethoven studied Pal. Viv. Bach and Mozart and so on. I'm simplifying, but it's to explain... we are rooted in what has come before us, that's how history works...
    BTW, I wasn't criticizing the composition, I'm a huge fan of Vivaldi, Benedetto Marcello, T. Albinoni and friends (Vivaldi's family was from my home town, that's a plus )... it's your performance I was talking about

  6. #6

    Re: Session Strings 2

    Quote Originally Posted by oldbob View Post
    what I mean, and in the most respectful way, is that real instruments don't sound like that... and samples should as far as possible reflect real performances... here's a quick example I've done,

    www.robertosoggetti.com/Vivaldi.mp3

    ok, maybe too much vibrato for the period, but it gives the idea of what I mean for expressive samples playing...
    as for Mozart being influenced by baroque, well, every composition by Mozart is influenced by the baroque language, because that's where he was coming from... the so called "classical" period (Mozart, Haydn, first Beethoven), with its (beyond bearing, if you ask me) use of V-I is an evolution of the preceding century's harmonic development. Bach studied Palestrina or Vivaldi ecc., Mozart studied Bach, Palestrina and Vivaldi, Beethoven studied Pal. Viv. Bach and Mozart and so on. I'm simplifying, but it's to explain... we are rooted in what has come before us, that's how history works...
    BTW, I wasn't criticizing the composition, I'm a huge fan of Vivaldi, Benedetto Marcello, T. Albinoni and friends (Vivaldi's family was from my home town, that's a plus )... it's your performance I was talking about
    Oh I now see what you mean by your comments!

    I can see a great deal of work went into your rendering. Tell me more. What sampler? Sequencer? Libraries?

    Well we agree on a lot of things. We are rooted in what comes before us. Therefore Mozart was rooted in the Baroque. Of course. On the other hand, Mozart created his own style of music that departs well away from all that came before him. What I am saying is that if you listen to Mozart and then Vivaldi blindfolded , it is not hard to pick which is Mozart. I am sure we can agree on that.

    Here is more we agree on: taste in music (and performances) is a personal thing. Like food for example. I love Pizza but I do not care for Chinese. Toscanini had his following and Stokowski's followers were just as loyal. Both were great conductors. I am fond of both. Everyone seems to have their favorite violinist. I have great joy with Stern and Oistrakh both.

    Now here is where we disagree. Digital signal processing is the new technology. I want to use it to create a new performance. My humble goal is to present the composer as the man who made the magic. My goal is not to try to make it sound "real". That is old stuff. This is a new era.

    My Vivaldi sounds different from your Vivaldi. There are two reasons for this. We have different tastes in musical performance. And we are going in different directions.

  7. #7

    Re: Session Strings 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan S View Post
    Oh I now see what you mean by your comments!

    I can see a great deal of work went into your rendering. Tell me more. What sampler? Sequencer? Libraries?
    not really a great deal of work, I play each line in Overture having care to have the appropriate expression... it took 30 minutes to do it. Librariy is Cinematic Strings

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan S View Post
    Well we agree on a lot of things. We are rooted in what comes before us. Therefore Mozart was rooted in the Baroque. Of course. On the other hand, Mozart created his own style of music that departs well away from all that came before him. What I am saying is that if you listen to Mozart and then Vivaldi blindfolded , it is not hard to pick which is Mozart. I am sure we can agree on that.

    Here is more we agree on: taste in music (and performances) is a personal thing. Like food for example. I love Pizza but I do not care for Chinese. Toscanini had his following and Stokowski's followers were just as loyal. Both were great conductors. I am fond of both. Everyone seems to have their favorite violinist. I have great joy with Stern and Oistrakh both.
    ok, we agree then

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan S View Post
    Now here is where we disagree. Digital signal processing is the new technology. I want to use it to create a new performance. My humble goal is to present the composer as the man who made the magic. My goal is not to try to make it sound "real". That is old stuff. This is a new era.

    My Vivaldi sounds different from your Vivaldi. There are two reasons for this. We have different tastes in musical performance. And we are going in different directions.
    the problem here is that you are not doing the composer justice... Vivaldi wrote the four seasons for strings, not for a computer... the composer's magic, as you call it, does not survive you treatment, which is depriving his work of any hint of life If you want to do it this way, fine, you have the right to do it, but don't pretend you are hilighting the composer's work... and, sorry again, but yours is old stuff, you are doing sequencing as it used to be done fifteen years ago. Your "new era" is a terrible misconception, I'm afraid.
    Anyway, I'm done with your posts, I find them too amateurish and not worth my time, best of luck with your project

  8. #8

    Re: Session Strings 2

    Quote Originally Posted by oldbob View Post
    not really a great deal of work, I play each line in Overture having care to have the appropriate expression... it took 30 minutes to do it. Librariy is Cinematic Strings



    ok, we agree then



    the problem here is that you are not doing the composer justice... Vivaldi wrote the four seasons for strings, not for a computer... the composer's magic, as you call it, does not survive you treatment, which is depriving his work of any hint of life If you want to do it this way, fine, you have the right to do it, but don't pretend you are hilighting the composer's work... and, sorry again, but yours is old stuff, you are doing sequencing as it used to be done fifteen years ago. Your "new era" is a terrible misconception, I'm afraid.
    Anyway, I'm done with your posts, I find them too amateurish and not worth my time, best of luck with your project
    Doing the composer justice is not a matter of fact but a matter of opinion. I told you that but you did not get it.
    I am not pretending.
    I have indeed been sequencing for 15 years.
    Of course Vivaldi wrote for strings. Why do you assume Vivaldi would shun the use of the computer?
    I hope you are done with my posts. We agree on that much.

  9. #9

    Re: Session Strings 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan S View Post
    Doing the composer justice is not a matter of fact but a matter of opinion. I told you that but you did not get it.
    I am not pretending.
    I have indeed been sequencing for 15 years.
    Of course Vivaldi wrote for strings. Why do you assume Vivaldi would shun the use of the computer?
    I hope you are done with my posts. We agree on that much.
    Has anyone EVER told you that these recordings sound good? I mean, come on. I've showed this to people for a laugh. Other than your own, in whose opinion does this do the composer justice? It just sounds terrible. Whether Vivaldi would shun the use of a computer or not, I'd imagine that he'd want he music to sound good, not hilarious.

    Are you even switching articulations? Dynamics? Starting legato lines slightly before the note is supposed to sound? Eq'ing? Reverb? This doesn't sound remotely real, or even pleasant to hear.

    I've said just about all that I think can be said here, so even thought I've only posted once, I'm done responding as well.

  10. #10

    Re: Session Strings 2

    Quote Originally Posted by mpalenik View Post
    Has anyone EVER told you that these recordings sound good? I mean, come on. I've showed this to people for a laugh. Other than your own, in whose opinion does this do the composer justice? It just sounds terrible. Whether Vivaldi would shun the use of a computer or not, I'd imagine that he'd want he music to sound good, not hilarious.

    Are you even switching articulations? Dynamics? Starting legato lines slightly before the note is supposed to sound? Eq'ing? Reverb? This doesn't sound remotely real, or even pleasant to hear.

    I've said just about all that I think can be said here, so even thought I've only posted once, I'm done responding as well.
    Well we have been blessed with a visit from the Almighty.
    Now we all know how to conform to the established standard.
    Woww what a relief!

    I have more to say to you but first may I request that I be allowed to get off my knees.

    If oldbob and mpalenik were here I would respond this way: cyberchambermusic published Vivaldi's Summer on an album on iTunes. That album has 8 tracks. The total paid listens for that album is 3,573. Different versions of Summer have been published on other albums. The total paid listens for Summer from all albums is 2,744.

    FINAL WORD 12/22/2012

    I am adding to this post for two reasons. It is showing up on google search on "cyberchambermusic" and I have the benefit of the last word since mpalenik and oldbob have said they will no longer respond.

    Please note that mpalenik is not researching replies to this post. Because he missed the first reply by leonarrd. Mpalenik asks if anyone EVER told you these recordings sound good. Leonarred said it sounds good in the very first reply. Thank you leonarrd.

    The objections are mainly that it doesn't sound "real". While others may be content in copying old styles, cyberchambermusic is intent on creating a new style. Specifically, we want to reveal that the magic comes from the composer and not the player.
    Last edited by Ivan S; 12-22-2012 at 12:31 AM. Reason: spelling

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