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Topic: Culture, EWQLSO, Trilogy, HardcoreBass, etc. -- Can you edit the samples?

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  1. #1

    Culture, EWQLSO, Trilogy, HardcoreBass, etc. -- Can you edit the samples?

    I don\'t yet have any of these ``plug-in\'\' sample libraries that come with their own sample-playback interface. And I\'ve asked this question about individual plug-in libraries on various threads, (but haven\'t seen a straight answer yet):

    Can you edit the samples??

    As you can with Gigasampler/Studio, can you export the samples from the program in a batch, apply processing, say in SoundForge, over an entire set of samples (tighten the attacks, change the EQ, pluck off the tails for release triggers, whatever) and import them all back into the program to set up a new instrument??

    If the answer to these questions is no, then I don\'t like this development of plug-in libraries AT ALL. If the reason these constraints are being placed on the user\'s access to the samples is copy protection, then I think we would be sacrificing too much in useability and it\'s silly. The crackers WILL crack these programs anyway and offer the cracked program plus the entire proprietary file set and send them to each other via broadband or copied onto CDRs.

    regards,
    Arch

  2. #2

    Re: Culture, EWQLSO, Trilogy, HardcoreBass, etc. -- Can you edit the samples?

    Not trying to be cute, but is that a no?

  3. #3

    Re: Culture, EWQLSO, Trilogy, HardcoreBass, etc. -- Can you edit the samples?

    Arch, I think the difference is the one that is found between a \'sampler\' and a \'player\'. In the \'old\' days, it would have been the difference between an AKAI S900 and a Korg Wavestation. [img]graemlins/tounge_images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

  4. #4

    Re: Culture, EWQLSO, Trilogy, HardcoreBass, etc. -- Can you edit the samples?

    from everything I\'ve heard, its a no

    ... or is that a \"know\"?

    anyway, yah its a frutration and a half. Being a tweak geek like me.

    Still Lee\'s right, render.

    I\'ve been finding I do alot more of rendering out to wave with chramatic samples of a full bar of a single note. Since I\'m mixing alot more or using non linear plugs. or using CC to make pre programmed expression....etc.

    Granted I\'ve developed my own streamlined process. The only real problem I have with this process is that I cant just re import any files so I have to reprogram banks from scratch

    the one thing I keep telling myself (and my g/f [my dog just doesn\'t understand samples, otherwise I\'d tell her too....oh wait no I think its the other way around]) Is that in the end I\'ll have some custom sounds because of all the work.

  5. #5

    Re: Culture, EWQLSO, Trilogy, HardcoreBass, etc. -- Can you edit the samples?

    Yeah, it sure looks like the answer is ``no\'\' (although i haven\'t seen it stated clearly by either a user or developer, for the above-mentioned libraries). Just to rephrase the question: Can you export the individual wave or aiff files in a batch as you can in Giga?

    I guess rendering is an option, though time consuming to strip out the individual notes from the rendered file. Also, let\'s say you want to strip out each sample from a velocity-switched multi-sample program. If you have no access to the individual samples and don\'t know where the velocity splits are, how could you efficiently record each sample? What if it\'s not fully chromatic sampling? On top of the fiddlyness overall, you might end up doing a lot of redundant work.

  6. #6

    Re: Culture, EWQLSO, Trilogy, HardcoreBass, etc. -- Can you edit the samples?

    Originally posted by Arch Stanton:
    I don\'t yet have any of these ``plug-in\'\' sample libraries that come with their own sample-playback interface. And I\'ve asked this question about individual plug-in libraries on various threads, (but haven\'t seen a straight answer yet):

    Can you edit the samples??

    As you can with Gigasampler/Studio, can you export the samples from the program in a batch, apply processing, say in SoundForge, over an entire set of samples (tighten the attacks, change the EQ, pluck off the tails for release triggers, whatever) and import them all back into the program to set up a new instrument??

    If the answer to these questions is no, then I don\'t like this development of plug-in libraries AT ALL. If the reason these constraints are being placed on the user\'s access to the samples is copy protection, then I think we would be sacrificing too much in useability and it\'s silly. The crackers WILL crack these programs anyway and offer the cracked program plus the entire proprietary file set and send them to each other via broadband or copied onto CDRs.

    regards,
    Arch
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Rendering does solve most of these situations as has already been stated. You cannot edit at the sample level in our instruments......BUT:

    All of the examples you specified can be done way faster already directly on the interface, or easily with additional plug-ins.

    For example, the start parameter lets you globally tighten the sample attacks, or use elements of a sound as a release element in Trilogy. Way faster than doing a bunch of batch processing routines.

    Of course, these synths have WAY better filters than GIGA too, so your tonal possibilities are already much more enhanced in terms of sound shaping.....and of course it\'s real-time.

    Also....this is just the beginning.....

    ;-)

    spectrum

  7. #7

    Re: Culture, EWQLSO, Trilogy, HardcoreBass, etc. -- Can you edit the samples?

    Lee:
    I\'m not so much concerned with Culture (which I\'m actually considering buying based on the demos and reviews) because there\'s not generally much editing I\'d want to do on percussion samples, and Yellow Tools has in the past seemed meticulous about their editing anyway, so presumably not much, if any, would be needed.

    I\'m more concerned about other libraries, and more importantly, the precedent. If this feature of sample libraries is being taken away because of copy protection concerns, I think it\'s wrong-headed and limits flexibility for the consumer.

    Some developers have rushed out products in which sample editing and programming has been lacking. And if samples are now to be hard-wired into sample players, the useability of those libraries suffers. Take Quantum Leap products, for example, which generally have truly great sounds but suffer from less-than-meticulous editing of samples and instrument programming and take one specific issue as an example: note starts. I\'ve seen samples within the same QL instrument that have greatly different start times for the actual ``note.\'\' When I say greatly different, it\'s not really that different, but let\'s say close to 1,000 samples, which is definitely noticeable latency. In order to tighten up the latency and jitter of that instrument\'s response, it\'s best to eyeball and edit each wave file.

    Spectrum: The above scenario is why a global adjustment of sample-start time won\'t work -- only sample editing will. Unless, that is, your instruments allow adjustment of sample-start time on a sample-by-sample basis, and there\'s someway to graphically see how the wave looks. I\'m not talking about batch editing necessarily (although yes, in some cases), but rather batch exporting of samples and then edits in a sample editor -- in some cases individual edits.

    Also, how about taking a set of staccato samples and creating your own set of release-trigger waves from the tail-end of those sounds? Can only really be done by eyeballing the waves in a sample editor.

    Spectrum, I don\'t yet have any of the trilogy, stylus, atmosphere line and it could very well be that once I had one of those products I\'d consider it perfect and wouldn\'t give any thoughts to edits, but I still don\'t like the trend of blocking access to samples _ if this indeed is becoming a trend _ and I\'m still wondering why. So, while I have you on the line: Why is your company blocking access to the samples? Is this being done as a kind of copy protection? Do you think there won\'t be cracked versions of Trilogy, Stylus, etc? Isn\'t the user buying a license to use your sample libraries? And if so, why not give the buyer maximum flexibility in using those samples?

    Thanks and regards,
    Arch

  8. #8

    Re: Culture, EWQLSO, Trilogy, HardcoreBass, etc. -- Can you edit the samples?

    Originally posted by spectrum:
    Also....this is just the beginning.....

    ;-)

    spectrum
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">...of samplers death.

    That\'s something very SAD happening, I don\'t know how many realize, apart Bruce, TJ, Arch, and some other power(?) users.

    As a professional musician who also has a deep background in sampling technology, in software developement (all programming languages from assembler up to LISP) and almost graduated in Computer Sciences (but music became too important) I WILL NEVER be led to believe that restricting the access to waveforms is a necessity in order to copy protect a sample library.

    This is a MAJOR STEP BACKWARD in SAMPLING TECHNOLOGY.

    Developers are simply re-inventing the wheel and trying to shut our mouths by promoting features that my 4 years old Emu hardware sampler had since generations (and better implemented).

    Real time Sample Start editing??? Come on guys... it\'s been 4 years I\'ve been emulating a realistic clarinet trill or tremolo using a Pitch Wheel to modulate the Sample Start Offset and thus \'breathing\' with the player....

    I\'m clearly against such misinformation and hiding of thruth.

    I only wish I had more power to cry it out loud.

    OPEN YOUR EYES, STOP BELIEVING EVERYTHING THEY WANT YOU TO BELIEVE.

    That\'s becoming disgusting.

    I\'ve not even seen Bruce answering anymore on this subject and I can understand his reasons, but he is not alone.

    Thanks,

    Roberto Rega

  9. #9

    Re: Culture, EWQLSO, Trilogy, HardcoreBass, etc. -- Can you edit the samples?

    Hi Arch,

    Well, of course we are always ridiculously meticulous about our sample editing and trimming and have been that way for a long, long time. So that \"dead-air issue\" shouldn\'t be a concern...and no one has ever had a complaint about that ever with our products.

    There is a way with our technology to do individual sample start edits from the plug-in interface, but there has not been any requests so far for this...if we got enough requests for any feature, we would probably add it if it made sense. The user-assignable release triggering would be pretty easy to implement too in the future. Of course, our release-triggers in Trilogy are already programmed to a crazy degree...with over 1,000 release sample noises for the acoustic bass alone! There are alternate release triggers you can instantly try and numerous way to modify those elements already on the interface.

    I\'ve explained our reasons for going in this new direction several times on this forum before...you might want to read that part of the interview on Gary\'s forum for more detail.

    The short answer is this:

    Copy protection is not the reason we made these instruments at all, but it has proven to be a very useful additional benefit. The primary reason we decided to go this direction was to create our own custom instruments with special unique features that don\'t exist anywhere else....and most importantly that can be used by everyone on any platform for the same one price.

    We don\'t block access to the samples....you can access them via rendering/bouncing. Sure...you can\'t access the samples exactly the same way like on a sampler, but you can dramatically customize and be creative with the instruments...in fact, that\'s what they are all about.

    You asked why we don\'t allow direct access to the samples....yes, of course it\'s for copy protection reasons. This approach has made an enormous measurable difference in our business and we see it working all the time. It\'s the same reason that all pro music software is CP\'ed...even though it gets cracked quickly.....because it makes a difference. It\'s the difference between a viable business and one that isn\'t. (But you might as well read those couple of 200+ posts about the subject last week, instead of me repeating it all here.)

    Maybe lack of direct sample pool access bothers you enough to pass on these new instruments which so many others are doing amazing things with....that\'s your call.....but I honestly think that you would be really missing out. The truth is that instruments like Atmosphere could NOT be created with something as limited in the synthesis department as Gigastudio. There are many things that our instruments can do that Giga and other samplers cannot do. This will become more and more true as the instruments evolve too.

    That\'s really what these instruments are about , is the freedom for us as designers to create and improve the instruments as we wish, without the numerous limitations of the traditional sample library formats that we have today.

    We aren\'t trying to replace a sampler, but instead to create something brand new...which has a lot more in common with the synthesizers that I was involved in developing for Roland than with anything else. (You can\'t batch process those wavetables either). These instruments work along side a sampler, and are cool in their own right.

    There is a way to export the samples for futher processing via rendering. It takes a little more time for certain tasks, but the truth that you\'ll find is that there are very few cases where this is necessary with our instruments....we think them through quite thoroughly, and we listen very carefully to customer feedback too.

    At the end of the day....what it comes down to is what is the end user experience like? We\'ve created something new that a lot of people like....it will get better and better too....that\'s how committed we are to it.

    I hope you check it out!

    Long live sample libraries too!

    All the best,

    spectrum

  10. #10

    Re: Culture, EWQLSO, Trilogy, HardcoreBass, etc. -- Can you edit the samples?

    Originally posted by rediesisminore:
    </font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Originally posted by spectrum:
    Also....this is just the beginning.....

    ;-)

    spectrum
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">...of samplers death. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Hi Robert,

    That\'s really not a fair way to categorize our instruments, and what we are doing.

    If you think that our instruments are somehow death of samplers and tools for power users, I think you are way, way off.

    1. There have never been more powerful samplers, developing at such a rapid pace at anytime in history than right now. (Kontakt, HALion2, EXSmkII, GIGA, Mach Five, Reactor and many others.)

    2. There have never been more tools developed specifically for the power user than today....a quick look at the market will confirm this. Power users have an embarrasment of riches to choose from. In fact, most music software is made for quite sophisticated users.

    3. There are more new, high-quality sample libraries that have full waveform access than any other time in history. I don\'t see this slowing down at all, even with the developments going on with plug-in instruments.

    There is simply another kind of product, that is more oriented towards a sound module or synthesizer.

    Different tools for different folks.....not the end of samplers at all.

    The truth is that if there are features that you or any users really need that these instruments don\'t deliver, either that company or its competitors will provide it.....that\'s just supply and demand, and there are so many talented software writers now.

    No need for funerals just yet......:-)

    spectrum

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