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Topic: Spectrasonics refuses to support their products

  1. #1

    Spectrasonics refuses to support their products

    It seems my post was deleted and I was banned because I used two swear words with substituted characters. I apologise to any members that were offended by this. I have deleted that paragraph from my post.

    I am trying to get hold of a dry snare and stick sample from the Euphraties groove on the Spectrasonics title Liquid Grooves 2. They are not on the CD. The snare in the groove is mixed WET with a really delayed reverb on it. I need a different reverb and to change the level in the mix and the position of the snare in the mix. The snare is a very important element of the piece and its entry is poingnant.

    there are a few dry snares on the CD:
    SNR-04a SN
    SNR-04b SN
    SNR-04c SN
    and some sticks but not the ones used in this groove.

    You would think that all the dry instruments would be available like they are on most Cds, but they are not. This seems like an oversight especially when arguably the most important element of the drum mix (the snare) is dripping with a very stylized reverb effect!

    I called their distributor, Ilio. I spoke to \"Dave\" who after explaining the problem for 10 minutes, said \"I still don\'t understand what you want!\"

    So I called Spectrasonics directly. I tried 3 numbers:
    818 955 8444
    818 955 8481
    800 870 4223
    I got no answer on any of these numbers despite being informed by the outgoing message that their hours are 9-5. I left a couple of messages.

    My call was eventually returned by \"Nick\" who understood the problem and said that it would be alot of work to dig out those samples. I\'m thinking they would need to go through some CDs of the sessions to pull up the mix in Pro Tools or whatever, so I said I was prepared to pay for someones time to do that - no problem. He said we don\'t do that! We are busy with what we are working on. I said that the CD is missing these crucial elements, he said \"it is what it is\".

    I could not believe that a company in the business of selling sample CDs would not include dry samples and, when asked for those samples would have the nerve to try and assert that its not their problem (or an oversight) and immediatly offer to correct it.

    I stated again that I would be happy to PAY for someone to find those samples. I am sure they have an intern that could at least go through the closet and dig out a bunch of likly prospects. I have all my work going back to the 80s in boxes. There is nothing I cant find given a couple of hours. This suggestion was met with \"we dont\' do that\". I argued that they are in the business of selling samples, why would they not sell me a sample?

    He said that CD was made 7 years ago and they are working on something else now. The implication is that if I buy anything but the very latest work, I am not going to be able to address any issues with it. Even if I was able to stay up on the latest releases, I might not need a particular groove for years.

    The concept pedaled at the shows is that of a company dedicated to producing samples to be used as a resource or library from which a musician can get what they need when they need it.

    Frankly I am disgusted with Spectrasonics. I will never buy a CD made by them, no matter how good it seems to be, because I cannot be hung out to dry when I discover a missing element that they point blank refuse to address.

    I am posting this here in a final attempt to resolve this, as I know Eric Persing reads this board . I have long been an admirer of your work sir, and you are a far better composer, arranger, sound designer, musician etc etc than I will ever be. But as a businessman this a really bad move. Alienating your customers does not serve you.

    In reading this fine forum I notice there are a few hot issues here, one of which is piracy. While I do not support or condone piracy, I can see why musicians don\'t have qualms about stealing your products. You may be the greatest sound designers on the planet, but you are selling your work to people like me. There is no excuse for this lack of product support.

  2. #2

    Re: Spectrasonics refuses to support their products

    Dear Mr. Sotto,

    Looks like the moderators at NS deleted your original thread. However, since I don\'t have your email or know your name, I wanted to post a response to the issue you raised here about making custom mixes being part of the standard support of our sample libraries.

    At Spectrasonics, we take accusations of lack of support like this very seriously, and we will always carefully consider any complaint about our support or customer service, as these are extremely important issues to us. It is never our intent to frustrate our customers. I am hopeful that this response will diffuse and clarify what I\'m certain is a misunderstanding.

    Like the vast majority of soundware developers, we don\'t offer personal customization services of sample libraries on demand. Please understand that creating our products requires a massive mobilization
    of creative people working literally around the clock under intense deadlines. It takes thousands of hours conceptualizing, planning, recording, editing, mixing, mastering, programming, organizing and marketing the tools that we create. Because of this fact, we are simply unable to accommodate requests for personal customization of our sample libraries.

    Of course it is perfectly acceptable to make a request or inquiry to us about something unique or special that you may want. However, in this case we aren\'t able to accomodate your request, because it is not possible to create this for you personally at this time.

    As Nick explained to you on the phone, we are very busy right now with other projects, and we don\'t have the time to research the original source and create a custom mix of this loop or snare sample for you. Contrary to what you might imagine, it would actually take several full days to track down the archives and recreate it, since the technology has dramatically changed since the time I created that library in 1996. Even if it was easy, it is an unusual and special request that we\'re not able to easily make available on an individual basis. We are simply not set up to create custom mixes of our loops or samples on demand.

    The creative choices made on each loop in every sample library we have are unique. Sometimes we present alternate mixes if possible, othertimes we present a wider variety of grooves instead....it really depends on the title. That\'s what we mean when we say \"it is what it is\".

    I think that Nick did begin to explain to you that there is already a way of lessening the ambience in wet loop mixes if you are using the Groove Control version of a loop, and it works pretty well on the sparse drum loops in Liquid Grooves. (You can achieve this result by altering the decay time of the ADSR Amp Envelope in your sampler). Apparently you weren\'t interested in considering the inexpensive upgrade offer that we have available to Liquid Grooves users to upgrade to the Groove Control version of the product. (Groove Control is really very flexible, and I would recommend the upgrade, since you will have far more of the \"single hits\" you are desiring to use.) Some of the other suggestions made in the original thread regarding reducing the ambience in a sample or loop would also be good options for you to try.

    While I understand why you would want this dry version of the Euphrates snare sample, and how you could be disappointed about us not being able to provide this extra service to you, it would have been better if you could have kept your tone a little more civil....raising your voice and swearing is not the best way to communicate and hanging up on us in anger doesn\'t leave us much room to clear up any misunderstandings. No one likes to be on the receiving end of that kind of stuff.

    I do want you to know that we not only care about the quality of our products, but also that we select the people that represent Spectrasonics publicly on the phone to our customers extremely carefully. As many users on this forum will attest, our US distributor ILIO has some of the friendliest people and best service in this industry. The person you spoke with at the Spectrasonics office is our Production Manager Nick Manson, who is a very cool and talented guy, and he handles most of our tech calls personally. He deals with many complex issues everyday, always keeping a level head when dealing with people from many cultures and backgrounds in high pressure situations.....he\'s not only highly knowledgable on every host platform and a superb musician, but he cares very much about helping to solve our customer\'s problems, and all of us at Spectrasonics take a lot of pride in our tech support department, which we feel is one of the best in the entire music software industry. The truth is that you couldn\'t have spoken to a sharper, more experienced or more understanding person anywhere in this business than Nick Manson.

    Of course, we aren\'t always able to say YES to every request we get. I hope this post has explained a little more about Spectrasonics, the sampling industry and some of our reasons for not being able to grant your special request. I hope you enjoy using Liquid Grooves, and will consider using our products again in the future.

    Best regards,

    Eric Persing
    Creative Director

  3. #3

    Re: Spectrasonics refuses to support their products

    Dear Mr Persing,

    Thank you for taking the time to reply.
    I have reposted your reply for clarity in this thread.

    I explored every option I could think of with Mr Manson, but it became very clear that he was not willing to consider any of them or work with me. There was no misunderstanding, his position was clear - forget about it! I did not raise my voice or swear at him once. I am sure he is a fine man and a great musician, that\'s not the point. I am stuck, so rather than argue about who said what I would like to focus on the solution to my problem.

    I think it is unfair to characterize a dry sample from a loop to be a \"personal customization\" or a \"custom mix\". I am sure you guys are busy, I do not expect you to drop everything to dig out two samples for me, but you can\'t find a day in the next couple of months when you can send the intern into the cellar to look for the session? Especially if Im willing to pay for it! I am sure that you guys used a Mac to make the loop. The dry sample would be in the session would it not? How hard is that to dig out really?

    Since it seems I am unlikly to persuade you to do this, here are some other options:

    I talked with Mr Manson about the possability of using groove control. He indicated that the snare and stick samples were NOT isolated. If they are I would be happy to buy the CD! I need the snare isolated from the mix, simply reducing the (large) amount of reverb on it is not going to cut it im afraid. I need that snare sound very clean to run thru a nice reverb unit. I am afraid that treating the wet sample to reduce its wetness and then adding reverb to it will not sound good (I could be wrong tho ..)

    I am not a sound designer. I would not know where to start creating the snare sound you have in that loop. Perhaps you could give me some clues? I could try to create the dry snare and stick sounds from the other samples on the CD. I don\'t even know if this is possible. Do you use EQ, gates, expanders ....

    Finally, perhaps you could recommend a sound designer I could hire, that is not so busy, who is competant enought to re-create this snare and stick sound in some other way. Perhaps with a few clues from you he could get it done.

    Any other solutions would be warmly welcome.

  4. #4

    Re: Spectrasonics refuses to support their products

    Dude, posting a letter and reply is very low. Why would you shamefully post that? If you have an opinion, EMAIL him and do not post it here.

    Geez, I thought THAT came to an end by now....

  5. #5

    Re: Spectrasonics refuses to support their products

    I do not have an email for Mr Persing.
    I am posting Mr Persings reply becuase my original thread was deleted when he kindly replied. Then I reposted my original thread.

  6. #6

    Re: Spectrasonics refuses to support their products

    MAn eric, you\'ve got interns that can dial up mixes on old gear done at other studio\'s with equipment that you probably dont have? I\'d hate to see what the real engineer\'s can do...

    oh wait nevermind, thats whats on those freaking crazy libs.

    Seriously tho,

    I\'ve got nothing to do with spectrasonics and dont represent them in anyway, what I\'m saying is jsut from my POV, and shouldn\'t be taken to reflect Spectrasonics\' customer support. Just my own addiction at posting my POV

    Sotto, do you honestly believe its that easy to do? I mean if the loops are all grooves, THERE ISN\'T an isolated snare they can go back to.

    Now, jsut for the sake of argument, they DID have the time and man power to go back to the original tapes and the gear (probably at another studio or on gear [mixers, software, players] they dont use anymore), and DID actually dial up the whole mix for the kit again (we\'ll hope there was automation), if the groove was played live (or manipulated from a live performance)...how would they get an isolated snare?

    I mean, again I\'m not familiar with the lib, is it made with seperate samples guys? or performances?


    This is totally a hair brained request, and joris\' car/convertable analogy was perfect.

    it *IS* a custom request. A request for something that is not offered of the library that you bought a lisence to, something that was never offered and wasn\'t stated would be offered.

    Its like asking for a single note/multisample from one of the phrases from symphonic adventures.

    \"I\'d like the snare drum from xxx melodic/percussive phrase because its mic\'d too far back for my tastes\"

    or better yet the xylophone because you cant hear it enough.

    actually I think that would be neat for real soundtrack CD\'s \"Hey Shawn Murphy you wanna go back and make me a version of that track with more woodwinds, and less basses?\"

    \"Hey John Petrucci, do me a favor and gimme a version of that latest DT song with only the clean guitar signal\"

    If they were to go back and do this for you I\'d support Eric in charging you 20,000 bucks to do it. Since 1st off, its not a flaw in the library, and 2nd off if he\'s crazy enough to do it, he\'s going to need the $$$ to check himself into a mental hospital.

    I tell you what tho, if this were common practice with libraries, I bet there\'d be a lot more happy customers, and less of that \"man this library is mic\'d too close/too much hall noise/too much noise reduction/not enough bow noise/breath noise...etc\"

    there\'d also be alot less libraries and they\'d cost even more than they do. We\'d REALLY be using all the same sounds over and over. (/major sarcasm)Thank god for these crappy libs made by the likes of Spectrasonics with their crappy support(/major sacasm) [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

    (KI dials up the bowed oil can sound and immediately remembers why spectrasonics sucks)<---again with sarcasm..... sorta... I mean they can suck because their so good too I guess.

  7. #7

    Re: Spectrasonics refuses to support their products

    Hi Mr. Sotto,

    You seem to still have some misconceptions about what is involved in what you are requesting. Asking us for any new versions or mixes of the samples that are not presented on the final product is asking for a personal customization....which we aren\'t able to offer to you.

    It isn\'t easy to provide, an intern wouldn\'t know where to begin looking and I would have to do it for you myself, and it would take a lot of time. None of the samples on Liquid Grooves were recorded with a Mac either.....it\'s a pre-DAW era product....and was an incredibly complex product to create, with many tapes, alternate versions and mixing experiments involved.

    I listened to the Euphrates drum loop again, and it is quite easy to cut out a dryer version of that particular snare out of the loop. This would be very easy for anyone with basic audio editing or sound design skills to do. You should be able to get close to what you want to do with the audio loop as it is, with a little cropping and fading of the snares. The initial hit is fairly dry, so you should be able to get an edited snare that would take fairly well to additional processing.

    Hope that helps.....

    Best regards,


  8. #8

    Re: Spectrasonics refuses to support their products

    SottoVoche, I think your expectations are totally unrealistic in this matter. Eric and the company are highly respected (for their products and level of customer service) on this forum. Accept that you can\'t always get what you want or at least deal with the company in private.

    Aqua Tarkus.

  9. #9

    Re: Spectrasonics refuses to support their products

    SottoVoche, with all respect, you got quite some attention now and d.i.y.s tips, please be satisfied....

  10. #10

    Re: Spectrasonics refuses to support their products

    What a fantastic topic! [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]


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