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Topic: Controller 74

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  1. #1

    Controller 74

    I've run into a couple of things while use the Garritan libraries with Sonar X2 (X2a now actually) Producer. When importing an old project from X1, a number of my MIDI lines show an envelope for controller 74. I can't delete this envelope, no matter how I try to go about it. I've tried reassigning that controller to some other controller but all that does is leave me with the newly assigned controller plus controller 74. I don't use controller 74 that I know of.

    Also, when I used Garritan instruments in X1, if I wanted to assign a MIDI controller to an envelope, (say for example controller 20), I would create a new envelope and the drop down list of MIDI controllers would be blank. I could type in "20" and I would have my new envelope. Now, however, when I create a new envelope, I have a populated list of MIDI controllers but not the same ones that Garritan uses. Some are the same (like Modulation on 1) but some are different (like Chorus Depth on 93, which Garritan does not have). Anybody have any idea what is going on?

  2. #2

    Re: Controller 74

    Hello, Mkuehlok - Only the most compulsive Forum members would be looking in today on Christmas Eve and responding to questions - but since I admit being in that compulsive category, I'll pass a few things on to you.

    MIDI controller 74 - Oh my, that is an odd one to see popping up. Google tells me it's a standard controller for General MIDI, effecting the Brightness/Cutoff Frequency. Hmmm, well, as you know, 74 doesn't do anything in Garritan.

    If the older project you're opening consists of some MIDI clips that you found online, then all sorts of things that don't apply to Garritan will come up - depending on what the original programmer did. But if you're talking about tracks you recorded yourself - I am totally clueless why an extraneous controller like that would be showing up.

    The Piano Roll View is the heart of MIDI in Sonar - but I can't be positive from you post if you're working there, since you're referring to envelopes, and those are what one sees and works with in the Track View. But you should be able to select any envelope in TV and delete it.

    In the PRV, if this CC74 keeps displaying, just click the minus mark so that its controller pane/lane isn't displayed. The extra data doesn't make any difference since Garritan instruments don't respond to it.

    Yes, from your second paragraph, it does sound like you're trying to do all your MIDI editing in Track View. I know people work that way, but I really think if you start using and get used to the Piano Roll view, you'll grasp the advantages. In PRV you insert a new lane, then choose the controller - just as you're describing trying to selet what data you want to start working with.

    It's been a quirk forever - Garritan Libraries interacting with Sonar results in a blank menu - You have to type in the controller number you want, as you describe. The menu you're talking about, with all the basic GM controllers listed - that should only appear when a track isn't already associated with a track in ARIA. But it doesn't matter if you're working in a different order of events, just highlight what you see and type the controller you need - I think that works, it's been years since I've seen the menu you're talking about. I do believe that if you record your basic track, and it's an ARIA track, triggering a Garritan instrument, then when you open a menu to get at various controllers - you should get that blank menu you're familiar with.

    Here's information on using Cakewalk's Interpolate feature - it's probably something you may be wanting to use - take a look here:

    Sonar Interpolate

    Gotta go - hope something in my reply is helpful - Happy holidays!

    Randy

  3. #3

    Re: Controller 74

    Ah yes, we all have our own compulsions. Mine is wanting to know why, even when it doesn't necessarily make any difference. The older project was of my own composition. They weren't MIDI clips I copied. However, from my experience, that does not mean that extraneous controllers could not be present. For example, if the old MIDI was created using a different instrument that did, in fact, use controller 74, and if I had created an envelope in the old project that manipulated that controller, I believe that envelope would still be there even though I have changed to the Aria engine. However, that still does not explain why I cannot delete that envelope. I right click on it and choose Delete Envelope, and the lane disappears, but when I click on the envelope drop-down list, it is still there. It doesn't seem to be bothering anything, and I could (probably will) just hide that lane, but it offends my anal retentive nature, just being there. I can find no evidence of the existence of that envelope in either the event list or the piano roll view.

    I knew about the blank menu quirk from Sonar X1. That is what is surprising me now. Instead of having the blank menu that I was expecting, it is populated with MIDI controllers. They aren't the ones that Garritan uses, although there is some overlap (modulation on cc1 for example). It looks sort of like the list that went along with the old Edirol instrument used in Sonar 32-bit. That menu list doesn't just show up on the MIDI tracks that have the phantom cc74 controller but in all other tracks as well.

    Actually, some of this could be related to the problem I was having with shutting down and restarting Sonar. I posted about this in the Cakewalk forums (under the name Galandar). The problem ended up having to do with the Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth, which uses, I believe, the same list of MIDI controllers as the one appearing now for the Aria engine. Might be related, but I don't know.

    Anyway, it's nearing midnight, and if I don't want to interrupt Santa, I'd better turn in. Warmest Christmas wishes!

  4. #4

    Re: Controller 74

    Merry Christmas "mkuehlok2"--! Now that the Christmas morning burst of activity has slowed down, I'm visiting the Forum - Here's a reply to your new post, for when you're online again:

    Quote Originally Posted by mkuehlok2 View Post
    ...The older project was of my own composition. They weren't MIDI clips I copied. However, from my experience, that does not mean that extraneous controllers could not be present. For example, if the old MIDI was created using a different instrument that did, in fact, use controller 74, and if I had created an envelope in the old project that manipulated that controller, I believe that envelope would still be there even though I have changed to the Aria engine...
    Correct. A MIDI track will contain whatever data was originally recorded in it. So if you created the track initially using a non-Garritan instrument that used various CCs that Garritan doesn't, that data will still be in the track, naturally enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by mkuehlok2 View Post
    ...However, that still does not explain why I cannot delete that envelope. I right click on it and choose Delete Envelope, and the lane disappears, but when I click on the envelope drop-down list, it is still there...
    I believe you're describing normal behavior. What you're actually doing is asking for that data to not be displayed. But the menu still lists all potentially displayed data. And, as you said, that doesn't matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by mkuehlok2 View Post
    ...I knew about the blank menu quirk from Sonar X1. That is what is surprising me now. Instead of having the blank menu that I was expecting, it is populated with MIDI controllers. They aren't the ones that Garritan uses, although there is some overlap (modulation on cc1 for example). It looks sort of like the list that went along with the old Edirol instrument used in Sonar 32-bit. That menu list doesn't just show up on the MIDI tracks that have the phantom cc74 controller but in all other tracks as well.

    Actually, some of this could be related to the problem I was having with shutting down and restarting Sonar. I posted about this in the Cakewalk forums (under the name Galandar). The problem ended up having to do with the Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth, which uses, I believe, the same list of MIDI controllers as the one appearing now for the Aria engine. Might be related, but I don't know...
    In my experience, the only time that standard list of MIDI CCs shows up is if the track isn't hooked up to ARIA.

    What you're saying about the Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth reminds me a confusion I've seen a number of times in Sonar Forum posts - People will mistakenly have that synth listed in their available and active MIDI sound sources, and they'll wonder why the Garritan instruments they've purchased aren't sounding any better than what they're used to. In those cases, it turns out they're still piping their MIDI tracks through the Wavetable Synth, and so they're hearing that instead of GPO or whatever Garritan Library they're trying to use.

    Garritan Libraries make a non-standard use of MIDI. All General MIDI plug-ins and hardware synths have the exact same list of available sounds/instruments, and use the same controllers in the same way - it's all standardized. So they'll use, for instance, CC95 for Chorus Depth - an example in your first post. But the CCs available for Garritan are all listed on a per-instrument basis inside of ARIA. When you go to the Controls window of ARIA, all available controls are displayed with knobs and in parenthesis are the CCs used to control that particular element. For instance, most GPO instruments have their volume controlled by CC1 (Modulation) and so you'll see ModWhl (CC1) displayed above the corresponding knob in the Controls window. Note that Modulation in GM synths controls vibrato, not volume. That's a prime example of Garritan's non-standardized use of the MIDI spec. Having the controls listed for each instrument in ARIA that way makes it very easy to know exactly how to control that particular instrument. You program your keyboard accordingly and/or draw in MIDI data in the PRV after you've added panes/lanes for each controller you want to work with.

    In Sonar, make sure in your Preference list of MIDI devices that you haven't checked the Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth, which is the set of GM sounds on your computer's sound card. There's no reason to ever use that, so just have Sonar set to always have that synth disengaged.

    If you start working in a blank MIDI track in Sonar, in the MIDI Event Type menu, all those standard CCs will be avalable. There are 18 pre-sets that are labeled, starting with "1-Modulation." But you can highlight the text and type in any controller you want that's not on the list. The menu defaults to Control, but when clicked, you have the other options for Wheel (pitch bend), ChanAft (Channel After Touch) and then both RPN and NRPN which you don't need to deal with if you're not using a hardware synth.

    To be clear - if you start work in a MIDI track before assigning it to any sound producing module, you will have that standard GM list of controls available in the menu. But you're not stuck with the choices there, you can type in any you want.

    BUT, if you set up your instruments first, then the menu behaves different. Insert ARIA, ask for all audio outs, and set up 16 MIDI tracks which are associated with those tracks - and the whole shebang is connected to ARIA. Now when you work in one of those ARIA MIDI tracks, even if they're blank and you haven't recorded anything yet, the MIDI Evenet Type menu will no longer have those standardized GM choices. Now you'll have the blank window where you type in the controller you want - well, actually it displays "0" by default.

    That's really all there is to it. As I said, in my experience, that GM list only shows up when you're dealing with a MIDI track which hasn't been hooked up properly to ARIA.

    Hope some of this helpful!

    Happy New Year!

    Randy

  5. #5
    Senior Member tedvanya's Avatar
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    Re: Controller 74

    Happy New Year!

    Got to this thread by accident, but it relates to my problem so well, that I try my luck, maybe I get an answer.
    Is there a MIDI controller in Aria to work on the SEND knob? If the answer is NO, then why two tracks on my 32 track set-up respond to a playback command by setting the SEND buttons down to 0? Only 2 tracks do this. If I delete the tracks and re-load them, the problem is gone, but soon appears again. Checked all settings in SONAR X-1, the troublesome two trucks are the same as the rest.

    Ted, from sunny Mexico, instead the snow in Ontario....

  6. #6

    Re: Controller 74

    Quote Originally Posted by tedvanya View Post
    ...Is there a MIDI controller in Aria to work on the SEND knob? If the answer is NO, then why two tracks on my 32 track set-up respond to a playback command by setting the SEND buttons down to 0? Only 2 tracks do this. If I delete the tracks and re-load them, the problem is gone, but soon appears again. Checked all settings in SONAR X-1, the troublesome two trucks are the same as the rest...
    The reverb Send knobs in ARIA are controlled by CC91, the standard MIDI controller for reverb level. There has to be either CC91 data in your tracks, or you accidentally moved the knob for CC91 control in the track headers.

    Randy

  7. #7
    Senior Member tedvanya's Avatar
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    Re: Controller 74

    Randy, Savior!

    Thanks a lot.

    Ted

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