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Topic: Must keep reloading instruments in GIO with Band in a Box or there is no sound.

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  1. #1

    Must keep reloading instruments in GIO with Band in a Box or there is no sound.

    I have a new copy of Instant Orchestra and I am trying to get up to speed with the VST use with Band in a Box as a host.

    The interface seems to work correctly, except that I must keep reloading the instrument patches to make them play. And they can not activate until I first start play in the MIDI file and then click reload for every channel (else no sound). However, if I click the reloads first I can sometimes get a good render to .WAV or .MP3 file with all the instruments playing. I have an open help ticket at PG Music on this too. It may be something I am doing wrong, but I have been through all my logs, manuals, old help emails, and searched all user forums and not found a cause yet.

    I have one MIDI file that automatically loads some but not all of the GIO sounds when the file is opened and it does play some but not all of the instruments but I can not find anything that is different in the file set-up.

  2. #2

    Re: Must keep reloading instruments in GIO with Band in a Box or there is no sound.

    I am making slow progress with some experiments. I found out that the sound patches do not automatically load in BIAB unless there is a mood or effect selected before saving the song file. But, my program combination seems a bit quirky because sometimes the results are inconsistent from one play to the next. And, sometimes there is a rapid sequence of dialog boxes saying patches are loading, and other times there are no appearant loads taking place before a sequence plays.

    I hope this thread is in the right location. I don't see a place on this site to discuss Instant Orchestra. But, I think it is a new product.

  3. #3
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    Re: Must keep reloading instruments in GIO with Band in a Box or there is no sound.

    It's possible that BIAB is not sending CC1 information to the patches in Instant Orchestra causing the problem with no sound. I think in Instant Orchestra you can change the mode for how the instruments react to volume using either CC1 or CC7 which would be found on the controllers tab in the ARIA player. If the volume change is not inserted somewhere before the instruments play, then you won't get sound.

    Jim

  4. #4

    Re: Must keep reloading instruments in GIO with Band in a Box or there is no sound.

    There is no controllers tab on my Aria player. There is a contols tab, but it only has ASDR and filtering stuff. There is no tab anywhere in my interface with a CC1 or a CC7 setting. I did not do the advanced install for GIO- just the basic one. I hope I don't need to reinstall to get to the CC1 CC7 control settings.

    I am having more trouble than ever tonight. If I open a BIAB or MIDI file and use my TSS1 VST synth all tracks and instruments will play correctly including all chords and notes. However, if I switch the synth to GIO, the results are very inconsistent regarding auto loading of instruments and all MIDI parts being present. And, for some patches, the chords are missing that played correctly in the TSS1 synth - chords for things like Piano that should not be changing. And, sometimes the MIDI parts show up on different tracks than with the other VST synth.

    And, worst of all, if I get enough patch settings to record, when I record the .WAV file some of the instruments drop out that were present with test plays a few seconds before.

  5. #5
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    Re: Must keep reloading instruments in GIO with Band in a Box or there is no sound.

    Yes, it is called the 'Controls' tab. You should have quite a few controls on the controls tab besides ADSR controls.

    I double checked though manual and Instant Orchestra is already setup to use CC1, CC2 or CC11 to control expression. You want to use one of these in BIAB to control volume levels. If you are using General MIDI files, they will not have these controllers by default. They will use CC7 which you will need to convert to one of the other controllers.

    Some of the instruments may be monophonic so they will not play chords. By default a majority of the patches should be polyphonic.

    If you still run into issues, contact the makers of BIAB who should have experience running Garritan libraries. I know that the BIABS folks that I've worked with the last couple years at the NAMM show have Garritan libraries. We've shared booths a couple times.

    Jim

  6. #6

    Re: Must keep reloading instruments in GIO with Band in a Box or there is no sound.

    The BIAB support people sent me some screen shots for controlling CC1 and CC7. It looks like I might have to set these on a song by song basis and at patch change locations. I am still learning how this all works.

    I found out that some of the mood settings have all instruments on channel 1 (for layered effects) and I was using channels 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, and 8. I misunderstood the GIO interface and when I looked closer I realized that for track 1 through track 16 there are MIDI channel number settings too. So, going forward I will make sure that I have the MIDI channels properly assigned.

    But, the loading is still an open issue for me. How do the mood patch settings get stored? Some of these patches have a latency or delay for loading the first time only, but then must be in RAM somewhere after that. If I set up a song for example, on the first play I might have to manually load 5 or 6 different moods - each will have the dialog box and instrument loads delay taking place. But, if I play the song a second time, there is no delay or dialog boxes during patch changes. I just finished my first 6 stanza recording using this method. I did my patch changes manuallly during rests in the score so there was no noticable delay in the final result. (I recorded a played MIDI file live and changed patches in real time during the recording.)

  7. #7
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    Re: Must keep reloading instruments in GIO with Band in a Box or there is no sound.

    Each patch has to be loaded into memory when loaded in. So there will always be a delay if you put in patch changes in your songs. This happens with all sample based libraries. Hardware units normally have everything built in ROM memory chips so they don't load into memory since the sound is already in memory.

    I recommend that different sounds are loaded from different channels or parts. I never use patch changes with sample based libraries.

    Jim

  8. #8

    Re: Must keep reloading instruments in GIO with Band in a Box or there is no sound.

    I can see how your approach is better in terms of speed. But, my challenge is that I am somewhat limited using BIAB to 8 or 10 tracks, and each track is fixed in terms of MIDI channel. I am using a lot of pre programmed patterns with their styles picker. Each style is set up only on one of the 8 or 10 tracks, and they are fixed. I can customize some of the channels to be multi timbral but that means customizing using the advanced MIDI event recorder.

    I suppose it is time to learn some different software. I also have Music Creator 6 and Real Band and am looking at others.

  9. #9

    Re: Must keep reloading instruments in GIO with Band in a Box or there is no sound.

    Hello, Obewan

    I'm just now seeing your thread. This "Support and Technical" Forum is a logical place to post questions, but not very many Forum members come over here anymore. Please feel free to post anything you want, including questions, on the General Discussion Forum which is the only page the majority of people go to nowadays.

    You're in excellent hands with Haydn giving you answers and info. I want to underscore the importance of several things he's brought up:

    --Your original problem about needing to re-load the instruments over and over is indeed due to you not having any CC1 volume control data in your project. Without it, your instruments are being set to Zero, no sound. CC1 (or 2, or 11, as Haydn points out in post #5) is of extreme importance when using any Garritan Library. You are meant to Play the instruments, not just trigger the notes, and by that I mean you record a fluctuating amount of CC1 throughout a track to emulate the way real world instruments are played. The best, most intuitive way to do that is by recording the CC1 data with a keyboard's Mod Wheel.

    But the main point is that without CC1, you're not going to hear anything. You were hearing things when you re-load because they load up at a default volume. Then, like other recording software, BIAB is re-setting CC1 to Zero once you've stopped playback - and the result is no sound. In Sonar, there's a MIDI setting which has to be changed so this problem doesn't come up. By default there's a box labeled "Zero controllers when playback stops." That has to be un-checked so controllers aren't re-set. BIAB apparently has the same kind of option that needs to be changed to avoid this syndrome.

    BIAB only gives you 8-10 MIDI tracks--? That's extremely limiting - compare that to a full recording program like Sonar which gives you an unlimited number of MIDI tracks. It's not uncommon to have 100 or more tracks in a project - You need many tracks to craft a fully arranged piece.

    Quite a few IO patches are played by single notes - So, as Haydn explained, those patches aren't going to be interpreting these auto-generated chords correctly.

    But I understand, BIAB is extremely different from standard recording programs. It's all about quickly and easily coming up with computer generated songs with a minimum of user input. And from what I can see, that makes Instant Orchestra a less-than-ideal Library to use with it. IO works differently than any other Garritan Library, and unlike most other software collections. As you discovered, often it has multiple layers on the same MIDI channel - that's one way it gets such a huge "cinematic" sound.

    With a more thorough understanding of how MIDI works in general, and how IO and BIAB work specifically, I'm sure you would be able to get some good use from IO - I'm just saying it's not as Instant as using other soft synths, like TSS-1 you mentioned. That's the kind of VST BIAB can use in a very straight-forward way. TSS-1 is a General MIDI soft synth, while IO and all Garritan Libraries aren't programmed according to the standard MIDI spec - and so they don't work in the same, standardized way.

    You said, "...It looks like I might have to set these on a song by song basis and at patch change locations..." Haydn also replied to that, and you need to take note. You don't set up program changes in a sample player like ARIA. Patch changes during a song only work for simple synth patches, because those can happen instantaneously. But sample Libraries like IO involve big chunks of audio data, along with complex programming. They have to load before they can play, and that can take several seconds, as you can see.

    I understand you've been trying patch changes because you can only use only a few MIDI tracks. That's why when you said, "...I suppose it is time to learn some different software..." - I want to say I agree, and encourage you to do that. So many programs offer entry level versions, and they all work basically the same. Sonar, Cubase, Digital Performer et al - And there's the inexpensive Reaper.

    Just a good all-around recording program is what you're going to be able to do the most with - and with it, you'll be able to get the most out of a sophisticated instrument Library like Instant Orchestra.

    Randy

  10. #10

    Re: Must keep reloading instruments in GIO with Band in a Box or there is no sound.

    Randy,

    Thanks for the help and the detailed response.

    It looks like the best deal on Sonar may be at Amazon.com. But, everytime I start pushing the envelope with Band in a Box PG music tells me to just use their Real Band software instead. It comes free with Band in a Box, but since there is no user manual I have not explored too far. It does have video instructions and online help though.

    I just checked, and Real Band will manage up to 48 tracks. Every track can can have it's own VST and instrument setting. And there is a tab for volume. These changes can be set on a bar by bar basis in the score even.

    It is easy to start in BIAB and then to move the MIDI file to Real Band to build further. I am not sure about changing instruments since GIO is not GM, but maybe track numbers will do it as long as I can have the moods loaded ahead of time for each bar change call.

    I will experiment with what I already have before I try something new. But, thanks. I have a lot of options now.

    This is getting more and more complicated though. And, no single publication covers it all.

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