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Topic: Bb Trumpet Transposition problem

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  1. #1

    Bb Trumpet Transposition problem

    When I select a Garritan trumpet and then transpose it to Bb trumpet. It does not play the low (below the staff) concert F. For the Bb trumpet that is a G which is an active note. The Garritan trumpet doesn't respond to the transposition.
    We dream to write and we write to dream.

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  2. #2

    Re: Bb Trumpet Transposition problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_uk View Post
    Hello again Bill,

    I just tried a quick check using the Aria Standalone and loaded the GPO4 Trumpet 1 Solo, which, I'm sure you already know, is a Bb trumpet (Written/Concert C sounds Bb).

    The lowest *sounding* note is, indeed, an F# below middle C (written G#). A sounding F below middle C (written G) is out of the range of a 'standard' orchestral Bb trumpet.
    Yes, but when I play it through Finale using GPO4 Trumpet 1 Solo, It will not play the Concert F (which is a written G for Bb trumpet.) Very confusing. I will try the stand alone version and see if it plays without using Finale.

    Thanks again, especially for the help on getting GPO4 into the Finale Wizard.

    Best regards,
    Bill
    We dream to write and we write to dream.

    Challenge #10 Winner

  3. #3

    Re: Bb Trumpet Transposition problem

    Hello Bill,

    Sorry, I deleted my original reply to correct some errors and this is my replacement post.

    I just tried the Standalone Aria and loaded the GPO 4 Trumpet 1 solo which, as I'm sure you already know, is a Bb instrument (Written/Concert C sounds Bb)

    The lowest *sounding* note is indeed the F# below middle C (Written Concert note of G#). As you say, the low sounding F (Written/Concert G) should be available.

    Unfortunately this seems to be missing in our GPO4 and JABB instruments.

    However, the COMB trumpets go down to *Sounding* low E below middle C (Written/Concert F).
    Michael
    Patience is a virtue, sensitivity is a gift

  4. #4

    Re: Bb Trumpet Transposition problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_uk View Post
    Hello Bill,

    Sorry, I deleted my original reply to correct some errors and this is my replacement post.

    I just tried the Standalone Aria and loaded the GPO 4 Trumpet 1 solo which, as I'm sure you already know, is a Bb instrument (Written/Concert C sounds Bb)

    The lowest *sounding* note is indeed the F# below middle C (Written Concert note of G#). As you say, the low sounding F (Written/Concert G) should be available.

    Unfortunately this seems to be missing in our GPO4 and JABB instruments.

    However, the COMB trumpets go down to *Sounding* low E below middle C (Written/Concert F).
    AH, but I don't have, or plan to purchase CoMB. I am leaving a Finale 2011 file address for anyone who would like to see the problem. I will try the JaBB trumpets, but I suspect they won't work either. I know it is an orchestral library (Garritan Personal Orchestra), but I play in orchestra and they do use Bb trumpets as well as D, Eb F, and C. GPO4 should be able to adjust to those criteria.

    The Finale File

    A bit dismayed,
    Best regards
    Bill
    We dream to write and we write to dream.

    Challenge #10 Winner

  5. #5

    Re: Bb Trumpet Transposition problem

    Hi, Bill - When we want the note range of an SFZ instrument to be different then as programmed, then we need to edit the SFZ file itself. The process is easy in theory, since the SFZ files that control GPO and all Garritan Libraries open up in Notepad. We open, edit, save.

    But then we have to know what we're doing with the edit. One would want to keep a copy of the original in case the editing messes things up.

    I have the SFZ file for Tpt 1 Solo open as I type this. I see the lowest note programmed is 54. That is F# below C, as you're saying on this thread. MIDI note 60 is middle C. It's looking like it should be easy to type in 53, replacing the 54, and that should do the trick. The section of opcode I'm talking about is 1/2 way down:

    <region> lovel=1 hivel=127 key=54 amplitude=100 tune=0 loop_mode=loop_continuous loop_start=87328 loop_end=93771 sample=TptF#3_0001102C.audio

    That's basically the way the code looks for all notes in SFZ instruments - It's simply a set of instructions telling ARIA what to do with a specific sample, "TptF#3_0001102C.audio" in this case.

    I'll run an experiment with that and report back. If you're feeling a bit brave, you could try that edit yourself - just be sure to retain a copy of the original in case something goes wrong.

    Randy

  6. #6

    Re: Bb Trumpet Transposition problem

    I have discussed this situation with my brother yesterday. I think his main point is and should be: If a trumpet can physically play low concert E (note 52) than why wasn't it included in the sample set for the trumpet. The clarinet goes down to its correct lowest pitch then why not the trumpet.
    [Music is the Rhythm, Harmony and Breath of Life]
    "Music is music, and a note's a note" - Louis 'Satchmo' Armstrong

    Rich

  7. #7

    Re: Bb Trumpet Transposition problem

    Instant success, Bill. I changed the range of the Trumpet 1 Solo to go down a half step lower, to the F you want.

    Don't be scared now, Mr. Bill, you can do this! Go to your Garritan folder in your Program Files. All the SFZ files are in the Instruments folder. Open Brass>Trumpets. Click a Trumpet SFZ file and it will open in Notepad.

    Scroll down a bit more than 1/2 way down. You'll find this area of code:

    <region> offset=5131 lovel=1 hivel=127 key=53 amplitude=100 tune=0 loop_mode=loop_continuous loop_start=87328 loop_end=93771 sample=TptF#3_0001102C.audio
    <region> offset=5241 lovel=1 hivel=127 key=55 amplitude=100 tune=0 loop_mode=loop_continuous loop_start=82699 loop_end=91720 sample=TptG3_0001102C.audio
    <region> offset=4943 lovel=1 hivel=127 key=56 amplitude=100 tune=0 loop_mode=loop_continuous loop_start=175505 loop_end=216108 sample=TptG#3_0001102C.audio
    <region> offset=4810 lovel=1 hivel=127 key=59 amplitude=100 tune=0 loop_mode=loop_continuous loop_start=146342 loop_end=152242 sample=TptB3_0001102C.audio
    <region> offset=3852 lovel=1 hivel=127 key=60 amplitude=100 tune=0 loop_mode=loop_continuous loop_start=268077 loop_end=292864 sample=TptC4_0001102C.audio
    <region> offset=5505 lovel=1 hivel=127 lokey=61 hikey=62 pitch_keycenter=61 amplitude=100 tune=0 loop_mode=loop_continuous loop_start=173344 loop_end=180186 sample=TptC#4_0001102C.audio


    In that first line, originally it said "key=54." I changed that to 53.

    Do that for all the Trumpets you want to change. I just did the Tpt 1 Solo as a test, but you would want to do the same for the KS version of that Trumpet - as many or all Trumpets, as you want.

    MORE TIPS:

    You may be denied permission to edit the file. Here's what I did to make it work since I wasn't allowed to directly change a file inside the Trumpet master folder:

    --Drag the SFZ file to your desk top. That makes a copy.
    --Drag out another copy and re-name it "original."
    --Edit the copy with the unchanged name, editing that one number as shown.
    --Click Save As - the default for Notepad is to save things as .txt files. You don't want that. Click the menu and choose "All Files." That will save the document in the same format it was already in - SFZ.
    --In the Trumpet folder, delete that SFZ file - no sweat, you have a copy of the original on your desk top.
    --Drag the edited copy of the SFZ file into the Trumpet folder.

    --Ta Da!

    Just step through that, it takes a couple of minutes - and you'll have the note range you want. You can do that with any instrument in any Garritan Library. You just have to look through SFZ files to find the particular things you want to edit. It helps to have a MIDI note number chart handy so you can quickly see what the numbers are for each possible note. Like that F below C in this example is #53.

    Do that! You'll be set to jet.

    Randy

  8. #8

    Re: Bb Trumpet Transposition problem

    Hi Randy,

    No that stuff doesn't bother me, I taught computer program and have worked with similar files in Microsoft Flight. Just never thought to look at the SFZ files since I've never opened one to see what it is. Thanks for the guidance and the tip. I will set it in action so I can truly hear what I see.

    Thanks,
    Bill
    We dream to write and we write to dream.

    Challenge #10 Winner

  9. #9

    Re: Bb Trumpet Transposition problem

    That is strange, Bill. I downloaded your example and ran into the same thing. The written F# and G do not play (I'm using Finale 2012). I did try Sam's Brass and it worked. I also tried both JABB and COMB and they worked as well. I tried the sampled trumpets included with Finale but didn't get any sound out of F# or G. At least you have JABB and Sam's Brass to fall back on. I seldom write that low for trumpet, but it's good to be aware of. I may be brave and try Randy's suggestion, though this is something that should be fixed in the next update for GPO.

    Gary
    Serenity Musician Productions (Gary A.)

    Lenovo ThinksStation S30, Windows 10 Professional 64-bit, 20 gig ram, 2 terabyte hd., M-Audio Fast Track, Finale25, Sonar Professional

  10. #10

    Re: Bb Trumpet Transposition problem

    Quote Originally Posted by serenitymusician View Post
    I may be brave and try Randy's suggestion, though this is something that should be fixed in the next update for GPO.

    Gary
    Well, I tried Randy's suggestion and got no results. The Aria Engine makes the key active, but no sound comes from that key. I don't think the sample of a trumpet below a concert F# was ever done. As you said, we seldom write that low (unless you play 4th trumpet in a Wagnerian opera!) I have taken this up with MakeMusic, but you know their respose time is measured in weeks.

    I think the problem is there is no sample below concert F#:

    <region> offset=5131 lovel=1 hivel=127 key=52 amplitude=100 tune=0 loop_mode=loop_continuous loop_start=87328 loop_end=93771 sample=TptF#3_0001102C.audio - even though the key=53 activates the key 53 (evidenced by it is white in the Aria Engine) there is no sample for that key to play. There needs to be asample=TptF_xxxxxxxC.audio for the sample to play unless I am reading the coding wrong.

    Thanks Randy, concept was great, but the change wasn't played.

    Bill
    We dream to write and we write to dream.

    Challenge #10 Winner

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